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Still Mad About the Pill Most Liked Hot Conversation

I think I get it. It’s a 50 year old grudge. They’re still mad about the Pill. The birth control pill turned the power game upside down more than 50 years ago and some people are still honked off about it.  Reliable woman-controlled contraception changed many things.  The Pill became forever linked to the sexual revolution, women’s liberation, cultural change, even consumer activism. All the things some people wish they could reverse.

As the Republican presidential campaign continues its jaw-dropping mission to control women’s bodies it’s clear that one way the hard right would take this country back is to drag women back a half century.

If you weren’t around to remember, ask your mother or grandmother what it was like after the Pill put women in charge of their bodies. They didn’t have to leave birth control up to the man who promised, “Trust me, I’ll take care of it.”

Not anymore. Women took control. Discreetly.  Your man didn’t need to know, or your mother, or the church.

A woman in charge of her future could plan her life, develop a career, start up a rock band, finish med school.  She could decide when or whether to have children. She could enjoy sex. For another pre-Pill reminder,  watch Mad Men.

In her book When Everything Changed, The History of American women from 1960 to the present, Gail Collins quotes the Economist magazine as crediting the Pill for being one invention that historians a thousand years from now will say defined the Twentieth Century.

In 2010 we celebrated the 50th anniversary of the Pill, confident that reliable birth control was taken care of. Today’s young women could feel assured that reproductive choices were “like the air and water, simply there when you need them,” writes  Gloria Feldt in her book No Excuses, about women and power.

But apparently some weren’t celebrating, but brooding, waiting for their chance to pounce and show women who’s boss.

Our current attackers are not all crusty old guys, the fools who think sexist jokes are funny. Some are young enough to be Phyllis Schlafly’s grandsons.  But their message is the same – that women, the poor dears, are simply incapable of knowing what’s best for their bodies.

The feverish Rick Santorum would get rid of abortion, birth control, prenatal testing and amniocentesis. Who knows what he’ll go after next. Virginia legislators pushed by the governor tried to force women to have an intrusive vaginal ultrasound prior to an abortion. Against her will. Whether she wants it or not. Non-consensual penetration of the vagina or, at worst -  in the case of Virginia – state rape. At best, politicians wanting to play doctor.

Former Congresswoman Pat Schroeder said “If you had told me when I was in law school birth control would be a debate in 2012 I would have thought you were nuts.”

Fortunately women started talking back. In Virginia they organized a silent protest, staring down state legislators going to vote against women. And Gov. Vaginal Ultrasound backed off.  Activists in Ohio labeled their anti-women Republicans “masters of the Uterus.” Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney demanded “Where are the women?” and led a walkout to protest a male-only panel dealing with contraception.

What’s seldom mentioned is that the Pill not only prevents an unwanted pregnancy but helps protect against uterine and ovarian cancer. It’s used to control endometriosis. It lessens migraines. And in its early years it turned women into their own health advocates. Concerned about the side affects from the heavy estrogen dose women pressured manufacturers to adjust the dosage. And they did. And women realized they had power as consumers.

Well, all of this has just been too much for too long for some people, mostly men, I’m sorry to say. Powerful women are obviously a menace to society and must be stopped.

That is our challenge then, for modern women and men to resist these 19th century throwbacks. If we don’t, we will leave a legacy for our grandchildren that will cause more pain and suffering than any whopping national debt.

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44 Responses

  1. Dallas Lady Dallas Lady says

    Huh?  Has someone passed a law outlawing birth control?  Did I miss that?  Hell, has someone passed a law against abortion?

    NO.  Absolutely not, aboslutely none. Not since 1973.  Women’s so called reproductive rights have been intact for damn near 40 years. 

    How many republican presidents have we had since 1973? And what has been detrimental or backwards movement to women’s rights in that period?  In fact , I am compelled to point out that abortion became legal in all states DURING a republican presidency (Nixon) and has remained legal throughout 5 republican presidents, and 28 of the past 40 years. So for 70% of the last 40 years, a Republican president has been in office and your reproductive rights–and rights to an abortion if you choose one–has remained solidly intact….regardless of what the republican party platform said.

    Your obsession with bashing republicans and republican candidates and fear mongering of backward change is part and parcel to the emotional laden, but not pragmatic, and not intellectually-analytical approach pervasive in the USA today.

    Because despite the stranglehood the religious right has on the platform of the republican party–it is simply to get their votes.  No republican president has used their power in office to get it overturned in any way–1) because its a presidentcy not a dictatorship and 2) they know better than to try. 

    Just like the liberal theft–oh I mean left–have their own platforms they don’t quite followthrough on either because of the implications of those.  Did you forget that Obama opened up off shore drilling right before the gulf fiasco?  And that his environmental record is deemed pretty dismal ….despite the platform of the democrats?

    Politics is 90% theatre and is usually pretty light on substance.  

    As is any discussion of women’s rights going backwards under republicans.  Hasn’t happened.   Wont happen.

    PS–Bush #2s support of women was unmatched when looking at WH appointments.  Just sayin’……

    12 like

    • Magnolia Miller Magnolia Miller says

      The old “let’s bash Republicans” arguments do get rather tedious don’t they?
       
      Magnolia

      6 like

      • Dallas Lady Dallas Lady says

        Actually what annoys me the most is the pandering propaganda prevalent today in politics and so many simply accept without question. The broad, sweeping stereotypes,..,.the lack of substantive analysis ….and the assumption we are all either 100% one political party or another.

        We are not sheep. And I am most decidedly not part of any party’s herd. And a solid third of this nation doesn’t identify with any party and swings the elections to and for.

        We are ripe for a legitimate 3rd party in this nation…..and when it solidifies, look out. The Tea Party was a start….and that’s why they scared the be-Jesus out of BOTH sides of the aisle. They aren’t the answer…but they are a start to proving to the country we have options and the ability to change — if we actually use our brains and think about the issues more deeply than soundbite blogging pundits.

        4 like

    • Generic Image Lindaloo says

      Don’t be too sure! Remember the financial crisis who would ever  thought that these “respectable conservative men” would  risk the American economy and create the world financial chaos? But they got rid of the regualtions and did just that.

      The Republican field of candidates looks pretty scary. Santorum just said he doesn’t  believe in the seperation of Church and State. Isn’t this why the Pilgrims left England to come to America and be  out from under the oppresion of the King and Church? 

      Santorum  went on to say that Obama was a snob because he wants every American to get a College education. He has an MBA and understands full well the benefits of education. It would be laughable if he wasn’t serious and he if he wasn’t neck in neck with Romney.  

      Who would ever dream a candidate for the US Presidency could spout such nonsense?  

      9 like

      • Generic Image Bethy says

        Everyone with any knowledge of what ‘really’ caused the financial crisis in ’08 will tell you that it was the liberals – again – insisting that banks give loans to buy houses to people who had no way to repay them.   This wasn’t the fault of  ‘conservative men’ but people like Barney Frank who threatened to ‘penalize’ banks if they didn’t give out these bogus loans.     And please please please quite trying to blame the Republicans for wanting to take away womens’ rights.   It’s just part of the healthy discussion we need to have - should we make it so easy and acceptable to take a life – what about the rights of the unborn.    Could the liberals  stop equating abortion – taking a life – with birth control.   Preventing a life isn’t the same as taking one.

        2 like

    • Generic Image Bethy says

      I’m okay that the pill exist,s as are most people, including Republicans.    I’m one of eight children, born of a Catholic mother who thought it was a mortal sin to practice birth control.  Yes – I get it.   But the pill ushered in the sexual revolution.   This has diminished the true meaning of ‘making love’ and has made sex just another activity.  In the meantime, STD’s are going through the roof and our children no longer understand that sex should be very special, an act by two people who really care about each other.  We have liberals to thank for that.  They like to keep accusing REpublicans of trying to take away woman’s rights – but the liberals have cheapened sex to the extent that most people don’t understand how special it can be – a communion of souls.

      2 like

      • Generic Image Lindaloo says

        As for the Liberals being responsible for “cheapening sex” the Catholic Church has done a pretty good job of helping them out.  One only has to think of  the hundreds if not thousands of boys who were sodomized by their priests, while they preached abstinence to their parishioners.  

        Perhaps it’s time parents took responsibility to teach their kids about STD’s and sexual behaviour and stop blaming everyone else.

        If it wasn’t for the so called Sexual Revolution sites like this wouldn’t exist. 

        By the way, I am a former Catholic.  

        7 like

      • Generic Image Faith Baker says

        Oh get real! I enjoy sex. Period. No apologies, just like men haven’t ever apologized for having it with or without being married! Keep your  B…….t morality out of my morality. Who says I have to be in love or for that fact married? Women have been denied that enjoyment until the “pill” was invented. And if you’re going so far to say that we have STD’s now because of the “pill”, you probably blame gay men for AIDS too. Go back to the 1800′s where you belong. I agree with everything the author of this article has to say. If you want to stay barefoot and pregnant, go ahead. I’ll make my decisions for myself! Deal with it for all you politically uneducated women. The Republican Party should start worrying about the economy and how to stop the stupid wars we keep getting into-not what’s getting into us….And just maybe, just maybe, we’d have alot less people and “unplanned’ children draining our welfare system. Birth control costs alot less than paying welfare to a mother whose 12 year daughter now has a child on welfare too. Use your brains and think about that. And try not to ask for your husband’s opinion on the subject!

        1 like

    • Generic Image SecretID58 says

      I just saw this on Huffington post website.  This legislation just passed.  I think it’s passage is definitely taking the personal liberty away from women.  It’s a totally anti-women ruling. 
      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/09/wrongful-birth-bill-arizona-senate-abortion-bill_n_1335117.html?ref=mostpopular

      3 like

      • Generic Image Faith Baker says

        I just read the article and it scares me to death. Since they (meaning Republicans) know that they can’t make abortion illegal, because of the uproar of us women,  now they’re using every tactic they can to make it almost impossible to get one. And unless you don’t read the newspapers or watch the news, Rick Santorum did say that he wants state and church to be united-just like all the Middle Eastern countries! What fun that would be. And now we are fighting over who pays for birth-control? I’d rather the taxpayers do that than have even more unplanned, unwanted and uncared- for children on our welfare system. Just what we need, to support their butts for 18 years and of course the kids they’ll be having before the age of 18? Children aren’t learning the facts of life at home, yet every Conservative won’t let it be taught at school?  Somebody has to teach them, and its pretty obvious that they aren’t being taught at home. (If we don’t tell them about sex, then they won’t do it!)  Am I the only one who read the article AprilC posted?

        2 like

  2. Guilded Lilly Guilded Lilly says

    I agree with you Susan, all the way down the line. Excellent comments.

    ANY patriarchal religion, backward legislators of ANY party or, in fact, any women or men, who promote the current attacks and demeaning of a woman’s intelligence to do what ever she chooses with her body must be held accountable for their ignorance and challenged vigorously.

    Laws notwithstanding in this country, the wars being waged against women are volatile and dangerous. Based on fear and in many cases, loathing, it IS currently the ultra conservative movement who seek archaic controls.

    Diversions from the fact that they can accomplish nothing in any other arenas? Perhaps. But these insulting attempts to chip away at a woman’s absolute right to control her health and reproductive life are wretched.

    We have the laws but we cannot let them be chiselled down and legislated away by the moronic spewing of scared misogynists.

    10 like

  3. Generic Image NaturallyCurlie says

    Susan Swartz the original author of this article never bashed Republican Presidents.  She was commenting on the general attitude of Repulican Candidates for President and particularly Rick Santorum to try to take away hard won women’s right to choose how she  determines her reproductive and overall health.  Dallas Lady and Magnolia Miller would serve themselves to read over the original article.  It would also serve them to be aware that the Virginia legislators tried to initiate a policy of vaginal rape that women were able to halt.  This is a fact and not related to Republican Presidents.  It is a fact that there was a male only panel dealing with women’s rights to have contraception choices and that is plain ridiculous and an awareness of this is in keeping with the original article.  Diatribes about Republican v Demacrats is not what this article is about.
    Keep reading with understanding about the topic and keep yourselves informed so women can have choices.  And that brings me to the concept of Abortion.  In my opinion the idea is RIGHT TO CHOOSE not Abortion.  When it’s constantly written as Abortion there are people – men and women alike who infer that women are forced into abortion without consideration.  I really believe the powers that be and the influencial professional writers should start to refer to the situation as a woman’s Right to Choose and not always use the hot button word abortion.  Often the wording makes all the difference.  By the way if it wasn’t abundently clear I agree with Susan Swartz.

    13 like

    • Magnolia Miller Magnolia Miller says

      I did read the article.  I’ve read other articles she has written too.  The underlying theme is always the same.  Ad nauseum.
       
      I rarely engage in political discussions.  It is just so damn absurd that some people (and I count the author of this post in that group) fancy themselves to be intelligent and insightful, yet paint an entire group of people, i.e., Republicans and Conservatives with one VERY broad brush, riddled with presumptions and assumptions.
       
      Like I said, it’s tedious.  It also lacks any real intellectual depth and rigors.  Why bother?  Anybody can stereotype.  It doesn’t take any real thoughtful consideration.
       
      Magnolia

      3 like

  4. Sharon Greenthal Sharon Greenthal says

    Here is a link to one of many articles today about Rick Santorum’s statement that “separation of church and state makes me want to throw up.”. His regressive and dangerous thinking about women and our place in society is bad enough, but now he also wants to have Christian values be the centerpiece of all that is American.

    I have to wonder as a Jewish woman – where will I fit in?

    I don’t believe that the sexual revolution is responsible for the loss of morals in our country, much less the world. People engaged in premarital sex long before the pill – and women always bore the burden of concern regarding pregnancy.

    How dare Mr. Santorum try to take away our power to control what we do with our own bodies.

    7 like

  5. Generic Image Marilyn Stults says

    After years of observing, I’ve decided that human males are instinctively very insecure about women who aren’t under some guy’s thumb, so to speak – rather like some species of animals that kill the young offspring of their new mates which were fathered by other males (lions, for instance).  As a woman who never married (not that I wouldn’t want to if I found the right person), but who honestly ever felt the urge to be a parent, I’ve encountered so many hostile attitudes from men I’ve met in the workplace, even though I haven’t been broadcasting my opinions about these matters.  As soon as they find out I have no kids they go on the offensive!  For some reason, so many men feel threatened by smart, independent women who are not somehow tied to a man, even if those women are not competing with them for their jobs.  As the old adage goes, they like to keep women “barefoot and pregnant.” I think the continuing debates about birth control comes from this attitude. To sum up, I remember a quote I read somewhere a long time ago which goes “if men got pregnant, the pill would be a sacrament!”

    5 like

    • Generic Image SecretID58 says

      I too do not have children and I married in my 40′s.  The amount of hostility I encounter from both men AND women was unbelievable.  Our society is not accustomed to a woman deciding her own fate.  I always (and still do) feel it is my life and I can do whatever I please as long as I lead a law abiding life.  In my experience, men are always suspicious when a woman does not somehow “answer” to another man.  Disgusting!

      3 like

  6. MargaretTei MargaretTei says

    It is curious that many of these so-called Conservatives rush in at the slightest hint of criticism towards weakening women’s rights to contraception, the choice to safe abortion, and control over one’s bodies. It so happens that Susan is writing about some Republican presidential candidates, but a true Republican should be outraged at these attacks on individual rights.  As Americans, we need to be vigilant, protect our individual rights, and voice concern when anyone, whether it be the Catholic Church, Rick Santorum or local politicians start trying to legislate what an individual can decide when it comes to his or her own body.  As Arnold Toynbee stated, “As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility.”

    3 like

    • Magnolia Miller Magnolia Miller says

      I couldn’t agree with you more that government should stay out of a woman’s life, whether it be her reproductive choices or not.
      Personally, I am not a fan of government in general.  I see it as a necessary evil, but should ONLY have as much power as WE the people allow it to have.
       
      Unfortunately, the only time liberal leaning folk seem to hate government intrusion is when it starts to trample on something *they* hold dear.
       
      I agree with you whole heartedly that the government shouldn’t be telling a woman if she can or can’t have an abortion or take birth control.
       
      It also shouldn’t be telling me that I HAVE to do something….like, I don’t know, say, buy health insurance?
       
      I also don’t think government should be telling me that if I make more than $250,000 per year that I somehow owe people who don’t make that much some of my money……you know……social justice and all that stuff?
       
      I also don’t think government ought to be forcing religious institutions to violate their conscience by providing something they don’t believe in……like birth control…..ala the Catholic Church being forced by the Obama administration to provide it through their hospitals and employers.
       
      So maybe we agree more than we disagree, right?  Government has no place whatsoever in ANY part of our lives…..our bedrooms, our wallets, our religious beliefs, our healthcare…….
       
      Magnolia
       
       

      3 like

      • Sharon Greenthal Sharon Greenthal says

        I’m not sure what to make of your last paragraph, “Government has no place whatsoever in ANY part of our lives…”. Would you abolish the government all together? I agree that much of government is in need of streamlining and an overhaul, but how will we defend ourselves as a country, how will we control the criminals, how will we educate our children and take care of our indigent and homeless, how will we repair our roads, our infrastructure, if not the government? It was the government that bailed out our (and the world’s by default) banking system, and it is the government that oversees all of the rules and regulations – some extraneous to be sure – that keep us more or less safe, healthy and able to sleep at night.

        Government needs to be reassessed, democrats and republicans must learn to work together, and those who are on opposite sides of the political fence in the general population need to keep talking to bring these issues to the surface.

        2 like

      • Generic Image SecretID58 says

        The Catholic Church is NOT providing the birth control.  The government is NOT providing the birth control.  It is the insurance company that must provide the birth control.  The rules of the Catholic faith says you should not use birth control.  But if a person who is a Catholic does not use the birth control that they are allowed to acquire through their insurance company, they are following their faith.  But if they CHOOSE to ignore and disagree with that part of the Catholic teachings, they can.  IMO, people should answer to GOD and not a church filled with men who are living a celibate life.

        0 like

    • Generic Image Faith Baker says

      I’m sorry, but part of the Republican party platform is in the “right to life” concept, and it always has been. Even tho’ Mitt Romney says he’s personally pro-choice, he (if elected) will follow the Republican platform. Of course candidates will say what we want to hear before they’re elected; once elected, they will follow along party lines. And if you say that this is not a part of the Republican party platform, I suggest you check again. The right for me to control my body is the only thing I hold near and dear to my heart, which is why I’ll always be a hard-core Democrat!

      2 like

      • Generic Image Faith Baker says

        This post was in reply to Margaret Tei, but unfortunately got put in the wrong place!

        0 like

    • Generic Image Faith Baker says

      I have a reply; please keep reading Margaret as it got misplaced a few posts down. But the bottom line is that the Republican party platform has always been “anti-choice” which is why I’ve always been a Democrat.

      0 like

  7. Dallas Lady Dallas Lady says

    For the record, I am completely pro choice.  I cannot personally abide the thought of abortion, i deem it murder in my eyes and I could never have one. At the age of 53 I can safely say I have been sexually active since the age of 18 and have been pregnant one time in my life–by my choice and plan. I firmly believe in access to birth control and i firmly believe that too many people are way too cavalaier about their sexual activities.However i am a liberterian who would never suggest that what is right for me is what is right for you–or vice versa. I’ll say out of your womb and you stay out of mine.

    Further– I abhor the stranghold the far religious right has on the republican platform. Thats why being of us have abandoned the republican party. I have voted on both sides of the aisle, but vote for candidates not for platforms.

    And most of all– I also firmly recognize that politics has gotten to be entertainment and theatrical vs substantive and intellectual–all of it.  On both sides of the political spectrum, including the the Rick S’s of the world and including most of this particular bloggers posst, which are repeatedly focused on bashing republican and republican presdiential candidates and very superficialpronouncements that tend toward emotional letting, but not intellectual analysis.

    And the real facts are that this issue is more about posturing than anything else. Women’s rights are firmly intact, have NOT gone backyards in the last 40 and will not go backwards in any way.  I repeatedly ask folks to name one single solitary law that has been enacted at a state or federal level that has taken women’s rights backwards, but no one takes me up on actually answering that question. But oh the drama stirred up on both sides. Entertainment.

    Despite all the theatrical posturing on all sides of the political spectrum.  Including Rick S’s inane comments, and including this bloggers superficial ones.

    9 like

    • Generic Image Faith Baker says

      Hey Dallas Lady! Have you read AprilC’s link to the Huffington Post cause there’s quite a few state laws that have changed. Like doctor’s NOT being allowed to tell prospective parents if their fetus has some form of physical impairment or deformity? Or that the mother’s life might be in jeopardy if she does give birth? Highly suggest you read the link to the Huffington Post before letting your mouth get before your brain…I also have an article from the Tribune Washington Bureau, (reprinted in the Orlando Sentinel), written by Ian Duncan which states that the Virginia law requiring transvaginal ultrasounds did pass, the only difference is that a doctor must inform the woman tho’ now she has the right to say no to the procedure. Mississippi and Pennsylvania are now trying to pass the same legislation-without the woman being able to say no, as in Virginia. AND a bill just  passed the Alabama Senate health committee that EXPLICITLY calls for transvaginal ultrasounds. These are wasteful, time-consuming, expensive, humiliating AND unecessary tests which only purpose is to put up barriers to those women who want an abortion and to shame her into changing her mind. Alabama, Arizona, Florida, Kansas, Louisiana and Texas all have laws requiring women to get an ultrasound before having an abortion. Is that enough laws on the “books” now and proposed future laws for you to still think that there aren’t any laws out there to prevent a woman from getting an abortion? And what about the women who don’t have the money for these procedures, and God forbid they work for a Catholic-owned company? These laws are all designed to limit women’s reproductive rights, especially those of poor women, who don’t have the money for these ridiculous tests. As AprilC states in her last post- all of these laws restrict access to having an abortion, and required counseling and “waiting” periods may just make it too late to get an abortion. No there aren’t actually any laws preventing abortion, that is if you don’t mind all the new restrictions and having a probe thrust up your vagina just so you can learn “what”?  Even women who choose to keep their pregnancy don’t get ultrasounds that early in their pregnancies-they have to wait to a certain point so that they can actually learn something about their fetuses, i.e. the sex, any abnornalities, etc. And what about women who were raped? Must they be raped again by a “probe”? It is tandamount to “state-rape”. And this is just the beginning of the battle ….So I think I have given you plenty of laws and proposed laws that can and will severely limit women’s reproductive rights now and in the future. And I still personally believe as the author of this article does-men are still pissed-off that we women now have more freedom, sexually and otherwise. Women are now starting to make as much money as men, and that makes their egos and something else go flaccid. Just take a look at all the recent Hollywood married couples that are divorcing now; Demi and Ashton, Heidi and Seal, and even more than I can think of at the moment. But they all have at least one thing in common-the women are the main breadwinners. Seal’s net worth is around $17 million, Heidi’s is $70 million (if my memory is correct).  Even with those kinds of #’s, the male ego cannot handle it. If they’re not the breadwinner, then what are they? They just can’t get over it or learn to do some housekeeping! (Wouldn’t that be lovely!). So now, they are trying harder and harder to try to take back some of their control-because that’s all they know. Even having Viagra isn’t enough to keep them happy! What a shame; as we women “grow”, men are crawling farther and farther into their caves, and I don’t mean “man-caves”!

      2 like

      • Dallas Lady Dallas Lady says

        Faith, first it isn’t a law in Arizona–yet.  It passed one legistlative branch, but is making its way through the 2nd.  

        And of course doctors shouldnt withhold relevant info from a patient. 

        At issue is an Arizona bill that would bar “wrongful birth” and “wrongful life” suits. These suits have a long history, and are generally brought by parents who believe their physician failed to tell them about a prenatal problem that might have led them to seek an abortion if they’d known about it. Some states allow these suits, some don’t.

         But does the Arizona bill protect a doctor who, perhaps because he or she opposes abortion on principle, deliberately withholds information that could lead the mother to seek an abortion?
         
        It doesn’t seem like it to me. The bill in question is SB 1359, and it’s pretty short. Here’s paragraph D:
         
        This section does not apply to any civil action for damages for an intentional or grossly negligent act or omission, including an act or omission that violates a criminal law.
         
        Watching the mass of misinformation over at HuffPo  directed at the Arizona legislature, about how the bill will allow doctors to lie to patients to prevent them from having abortions, etc. is mindboggling.    It’s all utterly clueless and misinformed.  There is no doubt that the bill very clearly does not protect doctors from suits alleging that an *intentional act* of theirs led to a mother not aborting.  And since lying is ipso facto intentional, it does not permit doctors to lie, or otherwise withhold information in order to prevent abortions. 
        It’s ironic that this bill is actually in this way milder than most other statutes barring wrongful birth suits, some of which have been on the books for decades, and in relatively democratic states like Minnesota and Pennsylvania.   But don’t let that face deter you.  The PA law was challenged, and there was no doubt that the woman’s doctors did deliberately withhold info.  But the PA Supreme Court held that the state’s wrongful birth statute allowed that.  The plaintiffs appealed to the US Supreme Court but they refused to hear the case (Sejpal v. Corson et. al.). Several of these laws (including MN’s) also say that (simple) negligence is not enough for the suit to proceed, so the Arizona law is consistent with them in this respect. 
        As for the idea that it’s impossible to prove intent, that’s pretty uninformed.  There are many important distinctions in the law that turn on whether or not someone did something intentionally.  That’s basically the difference between murder and manslaughter, for

        3 like

      • Generic Image SecretID58 says

        I’m sorry to say but most men do not want to have an equal relationship with women.  They just don’t!  They only want to do certain tasks.  Taking care of children is not really something that most men want to do.  Society reflects that idea at every turn.  Why don’t we see as many commercials of MEN taking care of the home, doing housework and caring for children?  You know why!  Women mostly take care of children and the home.  Cleaning products and cooking products are marketed to woman.  Too many men want us to do it all!  And too many women try to do it all.  To me, if a woman does over 75% of the housework, the men should pay at least 75% of the bills.  But in many households, that does not happen.  The woman pays equal amounts of money to maintain their standard of living while doing almost all the cooking, cleaning and child rearing functions.  These right wing men want their “personal servant” back in place.  They don’t want to be asked to cook or to scrub the kitchen floor.  And they definitely don’t want a woman competing for the same job they want.  I get pissed off by the unfairness that happens.

        2 like

  8. Magnolia Miller Magnolia Miller says

    No, Sharon, if you read the second paragraph, you will see that I regard government as a necessary evil.
    Keeping government out of our lives is about keeping the government from telling me how to live, what to believe, what I can’t believe, and basically legislating moral conscience.
     
    I have very libertarian leaning views as far as government is concerned.  The less of it, the better.
     
    Magnolia

    3 like

    • Sharon Greenthal Sharon Greenthal says

      I understand now. Honestly, sometimes I think the biggest problem we have in this country is how utterly huge it is. There is no way to do so many things well enough. I actually feel much more respect for the libertarian way of thinking than the right wing republicans.

      1 like

      • Magnolia Miller Magnolia Miller says

        Which is exactly why the federal government should keep their big schnoz out of our lives.
         
        Local and state government is how we run things.  Not to mention, the free-market place that works remarkably well – inspite of greedy people – when the government keeps their hand out of it.
         
        I’m not fond of right-wing  religious zealots anymore than you are.  And I’m not fond of left-wing radicals who border on socialism and communism either.
         
        but, as long as people make government their god….and frankly, government and politics *is* the religion of liberals, or that religious people want to make government the arm of God, we’re always going to have problems.
         
        That’s a fact.
         
        Magnolia

        3 like

  9. MargaretTei MargaretTei says

    I think that most of the women here are concerned, intelligent people – and it is encouraging when a real dialogue can take place – where everyone becomes more aware of other perspectives and learns something new.  But when people start blaming Liberals, Catholics, Government, Men or any other group of people for all sorts of social ills – that is not productive at all.  That sort of criticizing reminds me of domestic arguments where one spouse whines, “You always …..and …. and …..!” and then the other spouse is left just trying to defend himself or herself – it doesn’t lead to improving the situation, just hurt feelings and anger.  Rather than blaming others, it’s always more productive to offer your own solutions to the problem at hand. And keep in mind that somehow, things always sound more angry when it is just in writing…  Thanks, Susan Swartz for taking the time to write about something which concerns all of us.

    3 like

    • Magnolia Miller Magnolia Miller says

      I agree……However, the poster *does* blame and does not offer solutions.  That’s what set the entire thread on fire.
       
      For me, I do better by avoiding these types of posts.  The OP is clearly liberal and only sees things through that prism.  Trying to have discussions or solve problems when someone’s mind is locked into one prism is like talking to a wall.
       
      I find broad, sweeping assumptions about an entire group of people just deeply offensive.  As an Independent voter, I am a hodge-podge of different views on different subjects.  While I would call myself a conservative before I would call myself a liberal, I’m NOT a right-wing zealot.
       
      I don’t listen to Rush Limbaugh.  I don’t watch Sean Hannity. :)   And I happen to agree that government shouldn’t be getting in the middle of a woman’s reproductive choices…..even though I would actually call myself pro-life.
       
      It doesn’t seem to occur to some people that it is possible to have your own set of views (me being pro-life) but not feel compelled to force someone else to have that view.
       
      I would never in a million years insist that a pro-choice woman think the way I do.  I honor and respect her views and I don’t cast judgment.  And I haven’t voted for a Democrat in 35 years.
       
      So, believe it or not, there are plenty of thinking, reasonable, conservative thinkers in the world.
       
      Magnolia

      6 like

  10. Generic Image SecretID58 says

    I am amazed that so many of you think the Republican party is not having a war on birth control and women’s rights in general.  I’m a member of NOW and I have seen many bills introduced in congressional sessions that are introduced with the purpose of restricting women’s access to choice, birth control etc.  Not only are Republican controlled states trying to subject women to vaginal ultrasounds, but they are putting additional fees, restrictive building permits, forced waiting periods and forced counseling, allowing pharmacists to refuse to fill morning after pills and all kinds of things to make choice and birth control as difficult as possible.  If you think the Republican party is not trying to wage war against women, you are fooling yourself and playing right into their hands.  Your self-denial is their greatest weapon.

    6 like

  11. Dallas Lady Dallas Lady says

    Again I ask:  name me one of these bills that has passed into law that limits women’s reporductive rights.  ONE.  That’s all I’m asking.  Name me one.

    You can’t, because it hasn’t happened and it wont happen.  Its all about theatre and pandering to various niche groups in the name of trying to garner political favor for re-election, while knowing the bills are so inane they won’t go anywhere.  But these ridiculous legislators can then claim “they tried” to the faces of the neanderthals.  All of them.

    Politicians are idiots.  People who actually play into this drama arent too bright either. 

    Kind of link the one introduced by a Georgia democrat.   Rep. Yasmin Neal, D-Riverdale, has introduced a bill to ban vasectomies unless men faced a serious health risk.
     
    Since voluntary sterilization doesn’t cure a man of anything (other than having another mouth to feed), the bill would essentially ban the practice of vasectomies entirely.
     
    How senseless of a bill is this? Who in their right mind would vote for a law that prevents men from creating any future children?
     
    For that matter, who would pass any law involving men’s testicles, our most sacred treasures?
     
    Nobody. Which is exactly why Rep. Neal proposed this bill.  Simply to make a point.

    Hence she is equally as bad and being just as ridiculous in wasting tax payer resources as the others.

    And why aren’t you guys howling about her?  Oh because she isn’t serious?  Guess what, the likelihood is the others arent either.

    Sad state of affairs in the old USA, no?
     

    6 like

  12. Generic Image SecretID58 says

    Dallas Lady I am going to continue to post links to every new regulation that makes it difficult to have free reproductive freedom.  You are not seeing what is going on in the world. You are in denial.  And I don’t understand why.  How does it help you and the younger women of the world to not see what is going on?  Do you feel feminism has hurt women?  I don’t know how old you are but no matter what your age, I suggest you read a book called When Everything Changed: The Amazing Journey of American Women from 1960 to the Present by Gail Collins.  It’s a book about how life was for women before feminism.  It is very revealing and shows what life was actually like.  All young women should read the book but older women should read it also.  Some women seem to forget what life was like back in those days.  They want to forget!  But you can’t put your head in the sand.

    4 like

    • Dallas Lady Dallas Lady says

      April, I’m not in denial.  I’m a pragmatic realistic.  The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.  I’m simply not a drama queen and I dont go around screaming the sky is falling. I’m a realist.

      I invite you to answer the question you avoided.   I asked a fact based question and you insulted the messenger for simply asking the question.  But you avoided it in its entirety.

       How exactly have women’s rights actually gone backward in the USA in the last 4 years.  HOW?  Despite the the drama, hooplah, and theatrics of ridiculous inane politicians like Rick S and despite simple minded pundits and bloggers.

      Candidly the downfall of america in my opinion is the reality TV show mentality that pervades discourse.  Our politicians do it; our bloggers do it.  You are doing it.

      Sorry but thats my opinion.  you think I’m in denial.  I think you are overtly emotional.   And I think the same thing about most politicians as well.

      You called it how you saw it; I called it how I see it.  I’m not worried about womens rights going backwards as those who view it the way they do simply arent going to be elected. And we’ve had republican presidents for 70% of the last 40 years without seeing women’s rights go backwards. And they wont with the next election either…regardless of whether it is BO or Romney (who will indeed win the republican nomination at the end of the day).

      4 like

  13. Generic Image SecretID58 says

    For everyone who would like to know about current attacks on reproductive freedom, I am posting the link to the NOW website where they post all anti-woman bills that are being pushed through the government.  The Right is constantly trying to take our choices away.  Don’t kid yourself that everything will stay the same.
     
    http://www.now.org/issues/abortion/

    4 like

    • Guilded Lilly Guilded Lilly says

      Thanks April. I follow every attack that is being made towards women by Republican/Right-winged legislators and agree wholeheartedly that we cannot allow them to use these backward tactics in attempting to chip away at rights we fought long and hard to gain.

      As ridiculous as they seem considering the real problems being ignored, we must diligently fight back…or indeed, everything will not stay the same. We have to be dead serious in our focus.

      The magnified levels of State legislatures trying to demean and humiliate women with the attempted and actual passage of these outrageous bills is insidious.

      2 like

  14. Dallas Lady Dallas Lady says

    by the way…here’s a link that explains the ArizOna legislation–legislation that at least 9 other states also have– and lwhy it isn’t the hysteria that HuffPo says it is (no it doesnt protect a doctor from lying to patients…..)

    http://constitutionaldaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1546:az-wrongful-birth-bill-liable-for-wrongful-hysteria&catid=42:news&Itemid=71

    Please dont take HuffPos word for everything.   Actually take the time to READ the legislation folks . 

    5 like

    • Generic Image SecretID58 says

      I went on the Constitutional Daily website and read the article you posted.  Who runs the website? The masthead was very veiled as to the identity of the actual administrators so I decided to look up the actual bill in Google.  It seems like a bill that will protect doctors against malpractice lawsuits.  I will say that on the surface, the bill seems harmless enough.  ON THE SURFACE!  It strikes me that it is a building block bill that will open the door to conscious clause legislation.  All bills are subject to interpretation.  The last line of the bill “including an act or omission that violates a criminal law” sets the stage for laws that may restrict a woman’s choice concerning their pregnancy or healthcare.  I have noticed that one of the strategies of the right is to always think ahead regarding future legislation.  They are smart indeed when it comes to getting what they want!  I still say do not be fooled.  Consider this – Why do doctors need this kind of protection NOW?

      4 like

  15. Dallas Lady Dallas Lady says

    Why do doctors need it now?  For the same reasons they’ve needed it in other states for decades.  We are a litigious hungry society who constantly wants to blame someone.  This law is to protect doctors from aggregious lawsuits if they fail to identify a birth detect.  The states that already prohibit wrongful birth are Idaho, Utah, South Dakota, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, Michigan, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and Georgia. Yes indeed — there have been plenty of lawsuits where a parent tried to stick the doctor with the medcial bills and cost of raising their handicapped child because they claim if it had been diagnosed in vitro, they would have aborted.  Now that’s disgusting!  The bill is very clear….it idoes NOT protect a doctor for lying.    Why havent you been screaming about this same legilsation in  place in other states for decades all along if it is so abhorrent to you?  This isn’t a new type of legilsation or a new concept. it isn’t about protecting a pro-life doctor–its about protecting doctors frome excessive malpractice claims. The language in the Arizona legislation is very clear.

    You have an issue with the Constituional Daily?  For printing the actual legislation itself, and explaining it?  Funny, I have an issue with HuffPo who spun this one totally out of context to fit is liberal left agenda.  No shock there.

    4 like

    • Generic Image SecretID58 says

      Dear Dallas:
      I don’t have an issue with the Constitutional Daily per se but I like to get a sense of who is giving me my information. I have no problem with their wanting to explain whatever they feel the need to explain!  I want to know if they are religious, liberal, conservative, their ethnic origin, sex etc.  We are all a product of our backgrounds and experiences.  That background is part of the reason why people form their opinions.  Why do they need to veil their identities?  All mastheads for legitimate magazines and websites list the actual names of the people who are employed by them or of anyone who has an article printed.  The Constitutional Daily masthead has names on it like “The Namby Pamby”, “BL1Y” and “The Robot Pimp”!  Who are these people?  For instance, I happen to know that the Huffington Post website is owned by AOL.
      As for doctors needing malpractice protection, I think our society has that protection firmly in place!  It’s called a judge and a jury.  Everyone should be able to seek relief in a court of law.  As difficult as it is to process all the cases that are filed, I think it is necessary to allow American citizens to operate within a democratic society.  If there is no wrong doing on the part of the physician, let a judge and jury decide that by hearing the evidence, listening to testimony etc.  I do not support tort reform that will reach into restricting a citizen from seeking relief in court.
      I will google the states you mentioned concerning malpractice wrongful birth defect lawsuits.  It’s always good to give an opinion from a point of knowledge instead of totally coming from one’s personal feelings.

      3 like

      • Dallas Lady Dallas Lady says

        And that is yet another matter where we differ.  This is a litigous society beyond appropriateness.  Every law suit filed costs taxpayers money one way or the other–even the frivolous ones, actually especially the frivolous ones.  Outragegous jury awards beyond reasonableness raise the cost of healthcare for every one.  And everyone wants a piece of the pie, especially the lawyers who build these matters up to line their own pockets.  Funny, Texas implemented tort reform in medical malpractice several years ago–and the number of medical related lawsuits filed dropped by about 80%.   If there’s a payday with a cap, then it just plain isn’t as appealing to the plaintiff attorneys, imagine that.  (Ever wonder why HealthCare reform didn’t have tort reform?  Think its because BO is an attorney?  I DO).  

         As long as there are no checks and balances in place in the courtroom, the sky is  the limit and selfish motivation beyond reason rules.  Introduce reason and balance into the equation, and the sheer number of friovlous lawsuits drop expeditously.

        But you see that we went from discussing women’s reproductive rights–which the Arizona law is NOT about although HuffPo positioned it as same–to tort reform and medical malpracitce….which this piece of legislation IS about.

        At least now we are discussing the Arizona legislation appropriately.  Becuase it is is about medical  malpractice–it is NOT about womens reproductive rights.  Regardless of what HuffPo or the liberal left spin.

        3 like

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