What is wrong with me, why am I hesitating to leave?
I married at 39. I had a successful career, friends, confident etc.. I had been through several long term relationship and survied when they ended.
Now 15 years later I am so upset with myself for putting up with the all his crap for the last 10 years. I understand now he is a passive aggressive that has been manipulating every situation to his advantage with emotional abuse. He is unable to understand or willing to own anything.
So I am preparing to divorce. I am 54, I shouldn’t be this unsteady about what I know I need to do.
I guess the two unfamiliar, unreliable factors are age and economics. Particularly finding a job that is self supporting after being unemployed for a couple of years.
I guess I’m looking for assurance that it wil all work out and I will happier for making the change.
Any advice on divorcing a Federal Employee would be greatly appreciated also.
Thanks to everyone for sharing!
Julie
HI, Annamarie,
Thanks for joining in. Whether co-renting or co-owning, getting a compatible mix of people, and ensuring financial and personal security, are certainly number one.
There are so many intentional community and shared housing models o
Julie, I know just how you feel. I’ve been married 35 years, living with my husband’s pattern of verbal abuse and abandonment every 10 years or so. I, too, have not worked for about 5 years and am scared to death to even begin seriously looking for work. To boot, I moved 3000 miles away, with my husband’s help of course. Now he says his life is great living on his own, and I am in the depths of grief, wondering if it will ever get better. I just found this Web site a few days ago, and the sentence that really touched me and made me feel hopefull was, “let the side of you that is trying to save itself win.” I read that in the free report. Strangly enough, I feel a pinch stronger when I repeat that sentence. Thanks for listening. Barb
That was my comment, and the sentence that helped me get the divorce.
The older we get, the harder change is. Divorcing your husband, getting a job and starting a new life, is a HUGE change. You have the right to feel the way that you do.
That said, if you really want out, then where there is a will, there is a way. Find the will, make plans, and the way will come.
Good luck…
It took me 4 years to make up my mind to agree to a legal separation. I changed my mind about 3 times prior. I am 52. I have a good job and will have to work for another 13 more years till age 65.
This is what happens when we separate or divorce at a later age. I down size to a small bungalow, I basically learn to live with less and have to watch my budget and yes, I will not likely have the lifestyle that I could have if I was still married but I knew I was in a toxic relationship going nowhere and I was miserable in it and a decision had to be make. He did me a favor and asked for a divorce/separation. We split the assets 50/50. I was worried about the unknown, about my future, what if I lose my job and so on. Nobody can tell you what to do. Nobody can guarantee you that your future will be fine or you will be happier. I know I am glad I finally took the leap. I have always been an independant person so I am fine alone. I can take care of myself, deal with whatever life throws at me. I take care of the house and the maintenance and I am enjoying my freedom and my own happiness.
You have to have a plan first. I knew our separation was going to happen so I already had a plan of what I would do if it should happen. It was and still is a painful process. I thought it would be an easy thing to do – suppose to be amicable split, but nothing is easy when money/assets are involved. So I saw his true colors through the separation process and the jerk that he was. I have not talked to him since the separation 6 months ago. If he wants a divorce, he will have to file for it. Being the lazy person that he is, I doubt he will do it unless his new girlfriend wants to get married and does it for him. He moved on quickly to having a girlfriend shortly after I moved out.
The past few months were a roller coaster of crazy emotions for me. I cried easily, I fell apart when I saw him with her at my old house, and I felt wounded. It was good that Ifound this site and the many posts have helped me pull myself together. I am healing slowly but surely and have to go through this pain. 28 years is a lot of years with one man. So I tell you, if you think you are going to be worse off financially and so on, get a job first and then think about it some more. Have a plan because you do not want to be screwed over. Take care. It is not an easy decision to make. Do I have doubts still – some days I do but those days are becoming less and less and I have no regrets.
PS There is nothing wrong with you
I admit I wasn’t prepared for the “getting older” part of any of this. I appreciate the insight and knowledge that I am not the odd duck. This was my first marriage and to have to deal with the BS that comes with divorce, I can honestly say it will be my last.
I will be the one leaving the house to move 6 hours away to be closer to friends and family for support. My only concern if I can’t find a job, there is no going back. I guess that is what is so difficult and causes the fear is the fact that this is the first major life change without my father’s presence to stabalize the roller coaster of self doubt. He passed in 2001.
I’m soooo upset with age messing with my confidence for change… Thanks for sharing…
Have confidence, the job market is kinder to 50+ women than 50+ men. I cared for my husband while he died from cancer, I gave up my business in the computer industry. They say 18 month out and you are obsolete. Five years later a created my first resume in 30 years, a page and a picture and logged onto Craigslist job posting in my area. Sent out only 6 resumes with 1 paragraph email and got 4 replies and I live in Cleveland Ohio region. I was offered a job on my first day out. Have confidence if you are motivated and mature there are jobs for us over fifties.
NanaP you rock!!! It seems you have gone down a simular path, I appreciate your insight to beyond this sadness.
It is good to hear of the realities to prepare for financially and emotionally. I’m kinda secluded here, so I plan to move closer to friends and family. I have been applying to temp services to get back work without commiting to a job in this area for long term.
Do I just move, find a job, get set up and then file for divorce?
Do I file for separation, then move, find a job and get set up and then divorce?
Does a legal separation require an attorney? Do I have to agree to financial terms when the separation is filed?
Thanks for all your help!
I was the poster child for the fear of being alone (abandoment issues) . I stayed for 36 years, and then found the book that saved my life: THe Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans…it took me 5 more years to get out.
I am also…..(just turned 66 on 9/29) a 66 year old Freshman! I won a scholarship, because of what I wrote about overcoming in my life. We are strong women/sisters and we do what we have to….”Feel the ffear, and do it anyway!”
Limbo is the worst place we can be; get all of the information, resources and then begin little by little to make moves. Knowledge is power!
xoxo
P.S. Get rid of the words:; Should, shouldn’t
Feelings are facts, not right or wrong; they just are
Alicia, your last words re: limbo and should or shouldn’t are amazing. That’s exactly where I am – limbo. I tell myself all the time my feelings “should be this, should be that”. Your words have resonated with me and I’m going to try and acknowledge that my feeling “just are”. I am on the verge of leaving but haven’t found the moment. Thank you.
MsJuJuBean: I am not sure how this legal separation & divorce works in the US. I am in Canada. Ask about it on this website and see if any one else can help you. I had to get a legal separation to be able to borrow money from the bank to buy my bungalow. I did the legal separation myself, and hired a lawyer to witness it and paid $500.00 for that and I was the one who dragged him to the lawyer – separate lawyers. He too had to pay $500.00 – I was honest with listing all the money in my bank – he was not and by then I could care less. You have to protect youself. What is your spouse like? If you move out, please make sure you have copies of everything important – wills, bank documents, etc… protect yourself financially.
Hi NanaP.
I am in the U.S., but am proud of my French-Canadian decent on my fathers side. A family of strong women, hard working men and a sense of family my husband cannot understand. I can’t stay, I need to go back to my relatives and friends, where every holiday is a gathering of drink, food, laughter and love.
Today I visited with a female attorney at a womens help center who was encouraging and supportive. I so appreciate your compassion and guidence.. I am ready to start the process.. I can only move forward and have faith in myself
MsJuJuBean: Parle vous French? I too come from a family of very strong, independant women and a tight family. I gave my family up when I came to Canada years ago and was shocked to find that there is no sense of family with my ex’s parents and siblings. It is almost like I no longer exist for them even though I was the one who did a lot of the big dinners for them and was super nice and caring over the 28 years. I come from a large family and most of my siblings are in Malaysia. I too feel I need to go back to my siblings. I feel very alone here. I do have friends but they have their own families so I try not to intrude. My 2 kids have their own lives and I find it lonely and wonder what the heck I am still doing in Canada. I am giving myself a year or two and may just pack up my bags, sell off everything and move back to my home town in Malaysia to be closer to my sisters. Many emails have been sent to my sisters and they have been very supportive and they have asked me to go back. Yes my kids are here but they are not a big part of my life anymore. They did not want to hear anything from me about their dad. He is “off topic” and I know they do not want to take sides. This is what happens when we separate at an older age when the kids are adults. They want both parents to be happy and they do not want to have to worry about them. So I put on a brave face whenever I see them. My heart hurts inside. Today, I ran into my massage therapist and told her what had happened and it did not bother me too much to talk about the separation. She gave me a big hug and I did not break down or cry. We had a chat and I told her that if I had run into her a couple of months ago, I would probably would have broken down and cried. I have an appointment to see her next Friday.
It is great thaty you will be moving closer to family and friends. You will need that and it is good to move away from him. For me, I live within a 5 minutes drive from my old house and I am good friends with the neighbours at the old house. So I make it a point not to go over to visit them or even to drive by the street. I told the neighbours not to tell me about anything that goes on in that house. I no longer own it and I no longer want to know or hear anything about him. I am not sure what your spouse is like. I have a friend who moved out with nothing and after 2 years, she had to hire a good lawyer and had to go to court for for divorce proceedings as her ex was putting her through hell. She has yet to see a penny from him. He owes her big time and the divorce is costing her big time. if you and your spouse can agree to splitting assets ,etc… without having to hire expensive lawyers, the better. Be smart about this. This is when you stop being nice and you start thinking of all the nasty, evil things he may be capable of because he is not happy about the divorce. When it comes to money and parting with what he feels should be his, that is when the nasty part comes out. I was being totally fair with my ex and if I had to do it again, I would not be quite as fair or honest or kind. He screwed me over, telling everyone that I left him and made them feel sorry for him. He was telling everyone about him not selling the house because he was not sure about his job ,etc… and I knew all along he wanted to keep it. He is too lazy to want to move plus he has this fantastic house that I had kept up, had remodeled, painted, etc… and the house has an inground pool, big yard, and so on. So all he has to do is move his girlfriend in to share the expenses and he does not have to do a single thing. Life goes on for him, I was the one who moved out, the one who had to look for a suitable, affortable home and so on.
Looks like you have started the process by talking to the female attorney. Have faith that you can do this and then just take the big leap, and NEVER LOOK BACK. Just keep moving forward. We are all here to listen and care and guide. Lots of caring women here for you. Most have been through or are still going through the pain and process. It will hurt like hell but no pain, no gain right?
Ms JuJuBean:
If you go to STDs and read the posts there, I find that Gold Bangles is one fine lady whose posts have helped me tremendously. She was so insightful and she and I were posting back and forth like dear friends. I only stumbled on this website over a month ago and wished I had known about it sooner. This is better than going to see a therapist. It is free counselling from a lot of strong wonderful women.
I understand so much of what you are saying. I have my own list of obstacles to work through before I will feel out of the woods.
My immediate family, my sibblings are hard, uncompassionate people led by my mother’s example. My father (RIP) was my saving grace, the compassion, my faith, the strength in me comes from him. Back home it is his family, my Aunts, Uncles and cousins that have been the supportive force I rely on. (the french-canadian) With Facebook I have reconnected with high school friends from back home which has been a true blessing. And why I believe it will be the place to restart my new life.
I’m not afraid to be alone, I kinda enjoy the freedom it provides to discover more about myself without someone watching or judging. I think I’m more concerned about being a burden on someone else and not having that freedom because of shared spaces.
My ”kids” are my nieces and nephews. I wasn’t able to have kids, due to a childhood trauma. Back home are the 3 older ones who remember and appreciate my presence in their lives. They have their own babies now and are always looking for a free babysitter.
As far as this house, I agree with you, he can have it. It has become a place I want to leave, too many bad memories have destroyed its warmth.
I’m working through my fears of abandonment and the unknown. His anger still stresses me out, but I’m not reacting to it anymore, I’m taking back control over what I want in my life.
He thinks threatening to divorce me will hurt me, I just responded with “that’s fine”.
I’m seeing my path developing, maybe a little slower than I would like, but it is starting to come together with all the support and insight all of you have shared with me…. keep it coming..
I hope you will see a therapist (even tho everyone here is fabulous and helpful)….one more voice too help.
I was the poster-child for the fear of abandonment (never knew my father; met him when I was 33)…the unknown was the worst……but, I got thru a flooded basement, car accident (3 cars involved), re-mortagaging, insurance stuff, bills and on and on and on……my therapist (and at 66 I am an undergraduate in the mental health field) asked if I ever thought I could do all I have done……I was SO afraid…I mean, I waited 36 years! Keep writing..xoxo
Dear JuJuBean: I agree with Alicia about seeing a therapist. I have booked my first appt to see one after talking to my doctor today. It is good to get some guidance as to how to handle the roller coaster of emotions and stress of leaving or staying. You do not have kids to think about so that is one less mess to deal with. I have adult kids and never thought much about how the separation would affect them. The whole family is affected. His parents and siblings chose to side with him off course. My kids sit on the fence and do not want to be involved really. My own siblings are in another country and can only offer their support via emails. So in this sense I feel a sense of loss, and being alone. I would love to be able to pick up the phone and call a sister and make plans to go for a walk or do something together or hang out. Just remember that friends have their own families so it is not easy to count on them. I have a friend’s husband who thinks that because now that I am single, i am desperate for love and tried to make a pass at me. I was totally turned off and shocked and told him that I was not available and I will never have an affair with him or any married men. Shocking how men think of us. I had another married man asked me out and told me that his marriage was unconventional. I had to straighten him out as well. So now I am very guarded as to who I talk to especially married men or friends’ spouses. Another nightmare to deal with being a single, independant and confident woman with a good set of morals.
I know what you mean about not wanting to be a burden on someone else. I have my own place and had to ask for help from friends in putting my place together. There are things around the house that I physically cannot do and needed help. I can do the minor repairs, put up curtain rods, etc.. but there are stuff that I had to ask for help. My daughter lives with me and she has her own space in the basement – her own sort of apartment. I am glad for her presence in the house. It takes quite an adjustment to live alone. I like my freedom. I no longer feel the stress of having to deal with my ex. You have to be sure that your relatives are willing to take you in. If not you will be trading one nightmare for another one.
Dear friends, not to worry, I have been working with a therapist for a while.
Have you ever heard of EMDR? Its a method of eye movement therapy while separating the emotion from a painful event.
It works. It allows me to look at the event without reliving the pain along with it.
I has relieved all the anger and frustration build up that comes with an emotionally abusive relationship like mine.
Thanks for your concern, but I’m okay.
Dear Jujubean,
You asked for advice.
First, make a plan. Make sure that you gain a marketable skill, then start saving. The Federal Government requires Federal Employees who have been married 10 years or more to share their pension. There is a thing called a QDRO which has to be generated by a qualified person that lays out process and way the pension share is calculated. While you are in the process of doing this DO NOT sign off rights to survivorship. It might hack off your husband and cause him to work several years longer but it protects you if he dies suddenly. Make sure that you keep in contact with the Office of Personnel Management and that they have your current address/phone number. They manage the pension. Also, ask if you will be eligible for health insurance after you are divorced. It varies from agency to agency. The people in HR at the agency can help with that.
Next, if he has a thrift savings plan, you are entitled to a portion of it. Don’t let him say you aren’t.
You might want to engage an attorney to walk you through this. The attorney will protect your interests.
Good luck.
If there is a will, there’s a way, JuJu. I worked with a therapist before, during and after my divorce. It helps. I tried to save before moving out, but I couldn’t wait anymore. so I just packed up and left. luckily my sister let me sleep in her basement for 3 months.
Re: job – there’s jobs out there, you just can’t be too picky right now. My daughter left her husband, her job, and moved to another state. She started out working for a supermarket and now works at a university. She’s taking classes now and though still counting her pennys, she’s doing fine. Good Luck.
I so appreciate all the advice, it is wonderful to have a place to go to for advice. In regards to my therapist, I have been seeing her for over a year. We have been sorting out all the confusion and hurt from years of being blamed for all the wrongs in his world. I know I have a ways to go, but I am finally making progress after 5 years of being incompacitated by depression.
I’ve managed to work through my social fears and have gotten out of the house. This last summer I took a couple of trips on my own, out of town to visit friends and family which helped built up my confidence and self-worth. I’ve decided when it is time, I’ll relocate close to them to begin again.
My biggest set back has been conversing over the 2 years with an old friend. I realize now that person has been holding me back by injecting their own fears and self-doubt into my head. The age thing was the worst thing they focused on, ”starting over at your age is nearly impossible”. We no longer talk.
His being a Federal employee and the additional requirements was so overwhelming. I really appreciate GaylaW for your response. That mountain seemed to high to climb, you have knocked it down to a tall hill. Thanks for the sharing the knowledge.
Last weekend our argument was about him always looking over my shoulder asking me what I’m doing. I was journaling. I got upset because it has always been a condition of his to do as he wants, something I was expected to accept. His only strikes up a conversations with me when I’m busy with something. He thinks he is clever, I know it is an underhanded form of control. He believes I have a boyfriend, probably because he has always had a girlfriend. Any who, it escalated to yelling, he threatened to divorce me. I was able to calmly sit down, started writing again and simply said “that’s fine”. That was last weekend, he has been silent, acting like an unfamiliar roommate.
I’m still unemployed, waiting for another temp assignment. So I’m thinking about having a rummage sale next week. I know it’s late in the season to have it, but I have all this stuff to get rid of.
Can anyone tell me if it is worth it or should I just leave it here for him to deal with or drop it at Goodwill?
Thanks again girls for all the support
It is easier to “pay it forward” to Goodwill. Be sure to strip the valuables and put them somewhere else. He is unlikely to be straight up with you about your stuff — so beware. Good for you with the uninvolved “that’s fine”. my fave is “oh”, or “yes I can see how you would think that”. The lighter your load, the more energy is freed up. We forget what an energy drag unpleasant people are.
You go girl!!
I was married for 25 years to a PAP (passive aggressive puke). In the first year of marriage, he complained to me about a psychiatrist that he worked with who had called him a PAP. At the time, I sympathised with his wounded ego as I thought the psychiatrist was crazy,but eventually, I understood. The man isn’t abusive because he doesn’t have to be in order to control everything. You cannot pin him down to anything…he is a chameleon. He has no real opinions of his own. He will not stand up for you with his family or friends. He will make you feel as if something is wrong with you. You question your own hearing and assumptions. Superficially, he is this attractive man who loves dogs and children and is soft spoken. Everybody loves him while you turn into a bitch. somehow, you are always the bad guy. He never, ever takes responsibility for anything. He has a number of ways to avoid culpability. They are:
Never actually saying anything, but using body language and questioning statements that you make without actually disagreeing with them. You will go back to him and say, that he said something and realize, he didn’t, but he made very clear what he wanted.
Saying he’s sorry to get what he wants in the moment and in the process acting as though you are a silly female he condescends to. The sorry doesn’t change anything after the moment.
Never standing up for you with anyone, but when you seek support is great at making you feel you are crazy to have a problem with that person.
Using every means at his disposal to deflect blame from him to you. He will hug and pat you on the back if you cry in frustration, silly woman.
Always acting the good guy, especially in front of your kids. Undermining any authority or power you might have to use even for their own good. In front of them, he says, “lighten up”, “don’t be so rigid”, “but they wanted it”.(helpless smile and shrug here), and “I didn’t say that” or “I don’t remember that”.
Wow! and I am sure the kids think dad is the super cool dad and you are the silly, crazy, witch of a mom. Reminds me of my ex and now I am sure he too is a PAP! Did he ever say “tell me the one time I said that or did that?” like we can remember every word or thing he said because he would never admit to saying them in the first place.
My kids probably blame me for the split – mom being the silly evil witch and dad – oh poor dad! I have no sympathy for him and he really played the part of a guy whose wife left him for no reason. Makes me mad to think about it!!
But, HE’s the one who NEVER GETS MAD, right? Part of the M.O.
I forgot to mention that he always sides with the kids, of course. I have to think they understand at some level but the power the children gain is too much of an enticement. As an adult, she did once say that she realized that she never thought of her dad as a parent figure, but like an older sibling who had some power. Still, she has been so hurt as she is a child who needed two strong parents who respected each other. She has little self discipline and has had to learn that authority figures such as her boss don’t take kindly to losing face.
Chickadee: Yes they never get mad in front of the kids. They only get mad at you and yell at you but not in front of the kids. My ex is a “big kid” who never grew up. I was walking on eggshells whenever he did any repairs around the house. It would be my fault if something did not go right. Oh the stress that man put me through. I am on my own now and loving it.
He had no male friends. Just online women friends in some chat sites that he used to spend hours on because they all understood him so well, advising him to dump me. Even told me that ! Ouch! I guess they want to hook up with him so they were all encouraging him to dump me.
These men are narcissists, psychopaths…..they charm everyone else and even fool the most seasoned therapists…To everyone else they are Mr. Nice Guy…my x (after 36 years of abuse) used to say: “I am a nice guy.”
Nice guys don’t need to say that. Dont listen to what people say…WATCH what they do.
Ever read the Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker? THe premise that we (humans) are the only “animals” who stay at the first hint of fear…an animal immediately runs away.
We as humans, stay and stay; sometimes we die because we ignored our gut.
I’m so glad you mentioned his PAP behavior. It is the same crap that I’ve been dealing with. The same exact crap… and everyone here thinks I’m the crazy one and everyone thinks he is the greatest guy in the world.
Everything you say, is exactly the same behavior down to the pats. He led me to believe I was the crazy one. I commited myself once for a 72 hour hold because he had me so confused.
Then he called the police and had me held because I was screaming at him for taking money out of my account because he “borrowed” me a couple of dollars the week before, saw I had money (we ”had” connected accounts”) and tranferred it out. He never spoke to me, he just did it, causing NFS and fees for me.
I need to get out of here……
OMG,Jujubean. Run as fast as you can, but protect yourself financially. Ex-h used to run the checking account down to nothing and left nothing for me to pay the bills. Take care.
I appreciate the support, I thought I was the only woman to go through this.
As far as getting out, I’m working on it. Things have turned a corner as far as my understanding my situation.
I’m working with my therapist and a local women’s group to stay focused and working through my fears.
No one tells you how flippen complicated divorce is.
They make getting marriage too easy, no one tells you how difficult it is to get out of it. Someone recently referred to marriage as ”a trap”. I tend to agree.
Somedays the details are so overwhelming. What comes first the chicken or the egg, kinda stuff.
As much as I want to run screaming from here, I can’t.
Once I tell him I want a divorce, I will need to stay here until the divorce is final because once it’s over, once it’s all done, I’m leaving town. The divorce should take 5 months at the most. I plan to find a job and wait out the winter here before I can relocate.
Telling him it’s really over, then getting him to be fair in a settlement without fighting is the part I’m fearing the most. I’m worried about the mind games.
The best I can do is to move into the basement to try to avoid getting sucked into the drama.
I’m hanging in there….
Focus on what you want. The information and stamina will reward you. Focus on the worst-possible scenario only feeds you with negative energy and leaves no room for new energy/possibilities. Focus on the negative just eats away at everything in you that is good. Discarding the old is frightening, not discarding the old is frightening and eats you alive. Practice saying “no”. Start with “no, not right now”. Set your boundaries and respect them by, at least, being consistent. Sometimes keeping my word to myself is the only reason for taking a different direction. I must keep my word to myself, for myself, and to ensure there is energy free for tomorrow.
I had to learn the hard way. STOP engaging in useless conversation. Do NOT argue; that is what they want, because they always have to be right. They are emotional vampires and need their “fix”—their fix is you defending yourself. Say only what you have to, then DISengage. It takes practice; I know…I did it, after 31 years of abuse. Don’t worry about the mind games; let your attorney deal with it. Whatever he says; tell him his attorney and YOUR attorney will deal with it. He will want to argue you into the ground. Bite your tongue and walk away. Your job isn’t getting him to be “fair”—-that is the attorney’s/the law’s job.
I’m so glad I found you girls on this site. All of your stories, insight and support is really making this whole thing digestable.
I’m getting more familiar with normal, nolonger playing his games. And the roller coaster of emotions are leveling somewhat since learning about PAP. I’m nolonger wasting time and energy to try to figure out what he says or does.
I start a new job next week which should help financially get prepared for leaving. I’m taking it one day at a time right now, I’m dealing with what I can each day avoiding overloading myself with worry. He currently is gone most of the time and I have been quiet when he is home. I’m working on what I can do while trying not to worry about what I have no control of including him.
Keeping the faith…..
Ms JJ congratulations you are in the first phase of NORMALCY with a PAP. “Taking Care of Business (yours), as quietly and effectively as possible. When you have had enough of him (wherever/whatever) he is than take mjm’s advice. Do not clutter his over active mind until you are really sure of your footing. I say this with all respect and admiration. You know the most dangerous time is immediately after you tell him how the divorce will go.
With that in mind, keep getting your ducks in a row and congratulations on the progress you have made in such a short time. It is like the Groucho Marx quote …. not enough time in a life to make all the mistakes possible, so learn from others …. well done!
Jujub,
No doubt, divorce can be difficult. Have you heard about a way to go through it called, “collaborative divorce?” The idea is to work things out without being as adversarial. Be aware that attorneys like adversarial situations because the greater the conflict, the greater chance they have of generating more fees. Also be aware that the last thing you really want is to have a judge decide all of the most important things in your life; judges will be the first to tell you this. Although it might be difficult to do, to go through a collaborative divorce in which you and your husband make those big decisions together through collaborative mediation is the better way to go, if possible, then present them to the court for their stamp of approval. A good therapist will know about this process and be able to incorporate pertinent discussion into your treatment plan. Good luck.
-MJ
Dear Jujubean and mjm,
Having divorced from a PAP, I would not suggest collaborative divorce. That would be the PAP’s playground and a disaster for Jujubean, who will need someone in her corner.
I can only speak to my own experience, where collaborative divorce took me twice as long and cost twice as much as expected because PAP failed to do the assignments, or was too stressed or “forgot” or blah, blah, blah.
I’m not saying that this process wouldn’t work in a divorce that is amicable. I’m suggesting that this collaborative process might not be very successful in a relationship where one party has already bailed on the relationship.
Just my opinion. Jujubean. You have to do what’s right for you.
Gayle
I’ve been putting a great deal of thought into this. I want to begin the settlement negotiation by asking him for a preliminary offer to take to my attorney to look over.
I admit emotionally I was stunted, he brought me down, but I am not as stupid as he believes I am. (or he is not as smart as he thinks he is)
I do think it might be worth filing a Court Ordered Full Disclosure Oder, so if he is thinking of messing around with the numbers to hide the true numbers, maybe he will think twice about it.
I’ve thought about a Foresnsic accountant to go over the bank accounts but there isn’t one available locally and tho skilled they are very expensive.
His rein of terror controlling me is over. I’m not going to argue with him anymore about anything, it’s a waste of energy.
I recently had a neurolgy test done to defuse problems with memory and some boughts of confusion.
My IQ ranks in the top 17% with mild depression and severe anxiety. My symptoms are enviromental in source.
Dealing with this PAP has lowered my IQ and shorted out my nervous system.
I know I have to leave, I can not function or thrive under his thumb.
My heart is closed and my eyes are open…
Fellow Women on the Journey,
@ Gayle: You’re right, collaborative divorce can take longer. And, while the process was painful for you, it may have been LESS painful than the results of the full blown conflict fueled by attorneys’ self-serving motivations and judges ultimately deciding your outcomes. If there were children, collaborative divorce is shown to leave far less scaring on them and/or to better preserve the relationship between the parents so they can come together in the interests of their children in the future.
@ All: I find this discussion of our ex-spouses as “PAPs” very interesting. While we may like to think of them in this light (of course we do, because if we thought well of them, we probably wouldn’t have wanted to divorce), it is an error to use “a person wanting to be in control,” or “a person being passive-aggressive” as the basis for labeling them “PAP”. In truth, we all strive for a sense of control over our own lives and those who can impact us, and there is nothing wrong with that . . . it is a normal desire and it does not make us (or our partners) a PAP. The ways we try to assert a sense of control, and/or the negotiation tactics we use with our loved ones in the process of gaining control, are what may wound others. But the desire to control, in and of itself, is quite normal.
Most of us simply aren’t very good at negotiating our differences in assertive, win-win ways. That leaves us with the choice of being: 1) passive, 2)passive-aggressive, or 3)aggressive. A man who knows being physically aggressive is bad, and eliminates that from his options, then (assuming he’s not skilled at being assertive) has the choice to be passive, passive aggressive, or aggressive-short-of-getting-physical. Many of our so-called “PAPs” may have chosen to go for win-win solutions if they knew how. We women are pretty good at using passive-aggressive tactics, too.
The traditional, adversarial view that in divorce one partner is the victim (or the good one) while the other partner is the villain (or the bad one) serves as the basis for typical divorce. We begin organizing our past memories of the marriage from this framework and it becomes our mindset as we go forward. (I think it is quite sad to sum up so many years of our memories in this way.) We go into court to duke it out in determining who was the most villainous and, accordingly, who gets what! Not fun. And, it’s hard to move forward as healthy, whole women while we see ourselves as victims (not that there aren’t true victims). Interestingly, attorney-driven conflict and courts have greater potential to truly victimize women than their partners ever could.
Reality is that often two good people get married, two good people contend with the complexities of living life together (often with children) but are limited by their capacities to cope, and two good people decide they no longer want to be married. We may want to view our ex-es as bad guys, perhaps because it helps to make sense of our pain. But more often than not, divorce happens as a result of the dynamics that the two in the marriage contributed. @ Gayle: Interestingly, both parties have to want to participate in a collaborative divorce; it is not likely that a true PAP would have agreed to enter into the collaborative divorce process in the first place.
Usually, both people share responsibility for what happened in the marriage, both people have desires for the outcomes of a divorce. In collaborative divorce, both people take responsibility for how it will end. When one of the partners drags his/her feet over an assignment, etc., it may indicate that s/he has unresolved feelings about ending and isn’t in as much of a hurry to finalize things. It’s a serious decision and taking your time isn’t always a bad idea. Of course, foot dragging can also arise when one party wants to annoy the other. However, it may be better to contend with that than it is to leave all of your interests in the hands of attorneys and judges.
@ All: Anyone who wants to make better sense of their past marriage(s), or who wants to prepare for better relationships in the future may want to read “Things I Wish I’d Known Before We Got Married,” by Gary Chapman. It’s a delightful read that takes an afternoon to skim. Those who are currently contending with divorce, while you may feel like you’re at the end of your rope in dealing with your partner (of course you do . . . if you weren’t there, you’d still be trying) and may be tempted to throw up your hands and turn everything over to the attorneys, go the extra mile as you end things and try collaborative divorce. At least look into it. Do a little research on the internet, etc. You’re a woman and, while you may think you don’t have one more ounce to spend on this failed marriage, it is worth it to you and your future to consider the best outcome possible as you move forward. Of course, some of you have partners who will not agree to the collaborative process, so will have to take the traditional route. Take care dear women on the journey.
-MJ
Jujubean, I wish you the best outcome on your journey. You have to take the direction that is the best for you. Make sure you protect yourself emotionally and financially. Find a way to surround yourself with supportive women who will share wine, chocolate and kleenex, in no particular order. Make sure that the person who writes the QDRO is certified to do it, or it will not be effective.
You are not alone. There are lots of us who have walked through marriages and divorces with men who were passive aggressive and manipulative. You deserve better treatment than you are getting.
Be careful of the rebound relationship. Take this time as an opportunity to find out who you are are and why you chose the people you chose.
Blessings to you,
Gayle W.
Wow, I’m really not alone. I’ve recently separated, after 23 years. There are good days and bad days. I’m working, but the finances have really taken a big hit. I have days where I feel string and days when I’ve lost all confidence in myself. Even with hose feelings, though, I don’t think that I would go back. It’s refreshing to live for yourself. I’m not there yet, but I’m looking forward to new friendships and experiences. You must believe in yourself and your abilities.
No, not even close to alone. My dream is that our generation raised the girls to be strong women. I am sure they will not be as prone to becoming “giving in/don’t create a fuss”women as I was so raised by my mother. They may make wiser choices than many of us /I made. Hope is fading as I note the cyberbullying and need to be in a relationship.
So many of us made choices that were noted based on sound principles, mine were based on just being chosen. How pathetic!
Hi again Ms. JuJuBean. I guess I started the business with labeling the guy a PAP thanks to the brilliant Psychiatrist. I just came back to see what’s happening with you. Since you did say that my description sounds exactly like your husband, I would like to add my 2 cents to agree with GayleW. Do not give the guy a stage…you already know he is good at looking good while you look bad. I do like the advice that you decide in advance what you want and need but don’t engage in conversation with him about it. Let your atty. do the talking. I went to talk to an atty and paid him in cash to help me prepare what I could in advance. I did that because I didn’t know how he would react when he realized he couldn’t control me or the situation. (He was slimy, underhanded and played on the emotions of our kids to their detriment. He also attempted to drag out the divorce by quibbling over nothing costing each of us $200. an hour atty. fees).
I had high school age girls then and yes, they blamed me and felt oh so sorry for their dad. Even the sweet natured one went into a tirade, cursing me and calling me names that was uncharacteristic of her because I tried to set a parental boundary, not unreasonably, but her dad supported her and insinuated that I was out of line when ever she disagreed with me. They’re adults now and have moved on. We have a relationship, but I can’t have anything to do with him. He can be so nice to get me back into the place that makes me the bad guy everytime he gets backed into a corner by a request for money. Even though, he and I could still enjoy chatting, I’ve cut off all contact with him. So, he hugs me when he sees me and makes polite conversation, I smile and hug him back if they are looking. I would like to tell young people be very very careful whom you choose as the other parent to your children…it never goes away.
Yesterday, I read each of these posts, one by one. I saw myself in so many of them. The original “I’m Done. . . I want Out!” is where I am.
For over 3 years, actually more, I have been in a loveless, miserable state. I’m OK with the “loveless” – but miserable is not how I want to live the rest of my life. . . I’m now 61. It would take a novel to write all of this stuff. But the real demise of the marriage started several years back when a shift change at his manufacturing job sent him into a tailspin.
He has been miserable and difficult to live with since that time. There are no kids at home, so I get the silent treatment, since he won’t talk to me. Then to top that off, a relationship with an adult child (his from previous relations – not even a marriage!) soured. To this day, I do not know what happened. He won’t talk to me about that either.
But, whatever happened, put a hole in his heart – there are grandchildren that he has not seen in 2 yrs. – and live about 30 minutes away! This child was very successful (can I say “doctor!”) until an illness has almost made him an invalid. He is 37 yrs. old, I think.
I no longer work full time. Substitute teach a little. Run an on-line biz that is promising – but he does not call that a “job” because it does not take me out of the house 9-5. But it certainly does help make ends meet.
This could go on and on, and I will share and answer questions. But again, I have had it. Looking for a place to move. (No physical abuse – but we all know that emotional abuse is a silent hell!)
Rent is horrendous here in my area, it would be better to buy something. But still being married makes it difficult. But I am looking into all options.
As I have read the other posts, everything is MY FAULT! Or that is what he has convinced himself. . .
Just need to move. . . We are “respected” in our community – meaning no one know that there are troubles. We own a nice home, but as I read earlier, the “warmth” has gone out of it. Now, it’s just a place to sleep and do my biz stuff.
I went to church last night, and for the first time, I went to the altar for prayer and broke down sobbing. . .that isn’t even my style. . .
It is so difficult to have our lives turned upside down at our age. Our hearts are bruised and even bleeding. What did we do? We gave of ourselves time and time again, still we get shattered by the ones we love the most. I don’t understand. Are women with men the only ones to suffer from this heartache and abandonment or do women with women get hurt like this too? It seems like it is the men who break their vows and promises. I’d like to know if this is a gender neutral problem or is it just us women unlucky in love with a man that suffer these sorrows. I did a web search the other day, looking for a site for “what men 50+ know.” The search results were all related to how a man can get a younger woman, men dating, etc, but nothing like this site. I want to know what men think and feel when they are dumped, abandoned, etc, etc.. I sometimes feel that if I want someone in my life that understands me and my desire to have a serious, life long commitment to someone, it will have to be a woman. Go figure. Anyone else have any thoughts on this? I am so tired of the heartache men put forth on us.
For me, your note is like “preaching to the converted”. I have divorceS in my life and kept the sperm from last one, never married him. Lucky for at least one of us. I suspect part of the challenge is mine, I am just not “marriage” material. It is either that or chose out of short-sightedness. Then again, I never married/held a relationship with anyone who earned trust enough to hold us together. My thoughts are certainly on the same line as yours.