Vibrant Nation

DEar Josephine, don't be down in the dumps.  You are much too important.  Gene's postings prompted me to post originally, but your wisdom and compassion helped me to see the way forward.  Please don't underestimate your importance, many of us out here need a voice of quiet compassion, non- judgemental, gently guiding us to where we know we should be. Screaming and threatening would not have worked for us, by now we would hate each other and be apart.  For some, that is the only way, but you helped me to see through the anger and pain, and look for something worth saving, and I thought there was a reason to try. So far so good, but time will tell.   For now, I am enjoying what happiness I can find.    Please, continue to share with us, we need you.  You really should investigate a career in advocating for women, you are so good at it.

Laganlady,

Thanks for your kind words of compasstion. It makes me very happy....to know...that something I might have said....with  a word....a sentence....or....a paragraph....might have helped you to think through....more thoroughly...all your options...and....make the best decision for yourself.  You are a strong... brave...compassionate....wise... very intelligent  lovely lady.  Again, thanks for your kind remarks.  I feel honored... being able to communicated with you. 

Likewise!

Okay, ladies: what about the husband who is truly a hard worker and earns a reasonably good living, is always responsive to requests for errands, does the laundry, takes responsibility for the materials goods of the family, is always ready to help pitch in for my elderly father, helps me with household and landscape projects as needed, is courteous and respectful to all of my family members, and is usually jovial in manner, and likes to go out and have fun. And he most definitely does not cheat or go after other women or anything like that .... BUT (and a big but it is!) ... he constantly berates me for the way I spend money, because I use credit cards. To explain, I am NOT a shopper and I do NOT spend money frivolously on "things"; much of that money was for spiritual pursuits. Up until I recently lost my job, I was dutifully paying off my monthly bills, never missed a payment, and made plenty of money to make the monthly minimums (and often more). His philosophy is to never carry a credit card balance and he is TOTALLY focused on money. He constantly instructs the kids on how to spend or save or invest in stocks – which leads to the second big problem with him: he never, ever wants to discuss our future, our goals, or the direction our lives should take, which I do. He has no interest in spiritual matters, which I do. He is totally satisfied with light banter and commentary about politics, the news and world affairs, but when it comes to our own affairs, he's mum. I am a 'seeker', an inner explorer, a person who wants to constantly improve my understanding of myself and others – and all he thinks about is "retirement" in some general sense; he cares not about improving himself as a person, as a being. And he DOES need improvement, as he often criticizes the kids and me for small things and it's quite unnerving and often leads to quarrels. But he REFUSES to do anything about the situation. He flatly REFUSES marriage counseling. I can't bring up the subject without him attacking me verbally. And he absolutely BLAMES me for ruining the marriage because of the way I spend money!!! And yes, I know plenty of couples split over money, but our situation is that we are both smart working people, have a nice house, have NOT filed for bankruptcy or anything like that and I DON'T go out and spend money crazily; in fact, I'm a staunch coupon-user and I even bought a lot of our furniture at garage sales!!! But the criticism, the disagreement over money, the inability to sit down with him and have a sane, give-and-take discussion to work out our differences , have been going on for 25 years and I've had enough. There is a lot more to this story, but to describe the emotional entanglements of 25 years of marriage would be impossible in this space. But, ladies, from what I've said: does this sound like appropriate grounds for divorce? He keeps saying "You want to change me and I'm not going to change." Yes, it's true I want to change the NEGATIVE aspects of his personality which are ruining my happiness, and I'm even wiling to modify my credit card habits and compromise and keep the marriage on track for improvement but he won't budge. From what I've said, do you think I should leave? I want joy and happiness validation, not criticism and quarrels and being berated. I'd love to hear your viewpoints.

Efix,  I read your post this morning and have been thinking about it all day.  I will probably state my views in a few more hours.  I just wanted you to know, I for one, saw your posting and I am giving it some deep thoughtfulness, before I can began to respond.  So...in a few more hours, I will be back. 

It sounds like your husband is so afraid of losing what he has, he is not enjoying his life now. He worries about retirement, but is afraid to have a life now, the truth is not all of us will reach "retirement".  Regarding your spending, if it is truly not out of control, get the card in your own name, open a bank account and insist on having funds of your own.  You must be responsible for the administration of these funds and keep your word on never spending more than you can afford.  Whether spiritual or not, if you can't pay for it, don't do it.  You should also arrange to get your statements online, not mailed, then it will be your business only.  If he won't discuss things with you, and won't change, I will pass along a powerful message that was given to me.  You can't change him, if you want to stay in this relationship, you can only change how you handle him.  Be more independant, let him see you are not dependant on him, and are prepared to go it alone if you have to.  This can be done without arguments and tears, I tried all that, the thing that worked was when I stopped crying and pleading with him, and took charge of my own life.  I wanted to stay, as I too had a lot more to my story, but by asserting myself I took my power back, quietly, but firmly.  Believe me, I would not have believed it would work, and until I came on this web site, I was blind to the situation, but I listened and took what I needed, and I am happier for it.  The surprising thing is, he is actually happier too.  Like you, I tried to do everything I could to get along, but you end up doing all the giving, no matter how nice he seems, and accommodating, the true story is his relationship with you that tells the tale.  There is an old irish saying. " He hangs his fiddle in the hall", which means the man you life with is a differnt person the rest of the world see's.  This puts one at a distinct disadvantage, as you question yourself as to why you seem so unhappy when everyone thinks he is mister wonderful.  You don't have to leave to have a better life, sometimes it is the only way, but not always.  Start taking control of your own life, take your power back.

Good luck,

Beautifully stated, Laganlady. I especially like your saying of hanging the fiddle in the hall, as it really rings true. A lot of people whom he meets at parties, etc., say how "interesting" he is because he has traveled (w/o me, much of the time) and is so full of laughter and banter. But getting back to the credit cards, they have been in my own name for years. Hubby acuses me of "jeapardizing the kids' future" by charging them up w/o thinking of how to pay for the kids college and the rest of the bills, then relying on him to take up the slack. Well, to a degree that is true. In the meantime we have been to divorce mediation and are about to finalize the division of assets (we own rental properties, too); yet I am STILL wishing he will want to reconcile before the divorce papers go through, because I DON'T want to BE A DIVORCEE. There is something about being in that category that says I have failed, and even though I would come away with $$$ I want to work out a future with him. Of course, if he doesn't want to have a future with me --which at this point in time he says he doesn't -- we will have to part ways.

Both efix and laganlady hit home for me. First efix saying her husband only spoke to her about general topics,  ”He is totally satisfied with light banter and commentary about politics, the news and world affairs, but when it comes to our own affairs, he's mum.” That was my experience for 52 years. I wanted him to participate in our marriage, our family and our future. To others, he was a “good guy”. I can't count the times I asked for “us” to do something together that we both would enjoy together.  Looking back I can see his focus was on himself.. not us. Each of his indiscretions came and went. (I realize you don’t have these issues.) Each time I hoped this would be the last. For the last several years he became ensconced with his church ( I was not asked to go and as I said before I did not even know that was where he was. I did begin to answer calls from women in the church where he was partnering with them for activities. Something I always wanted to do with him. One of my big mistakes (and there were many) was to think, this too shall pass. It did not. He had jumped to a new security blanket. I agree with laganlady. Take control of your finances and be independent. Don’t wait. You don’t know what’s really happening. He just may be able to make plans for his future that do not include you.  You do end up doing all the giving and adjusting until you wonder who you really are. My ex most certainly was and is a different person the rest of the world saw. He didn’t have the type of financial concerns that your husband has. I wish he had. He showed me his 11 credit cards (all unknown to me and in his name) he ordered that we needed to refinance the house to pay them off. ($40,000)  After much worry and trying to figure out, by myself, another way, I agreed and signed. Then 2 weeks later he got himself an apartment and moved out. I am now having to sell the house as in the divorce he wanted out of the mortgage.  He wanted no strings attached from the last half century. He is 76 years old, attends every social activity available with his church and even on his Facebook page (Interest: Women.. Friendship) he lists a museum that I took him to and wanted to participate in together. My suggestion would be to keep vigilant, take care of yourself, be independent, take very good care of your personal financial situation and don’t think things will be better. They might and that would be a bonus. I always considered myself the optimist, but that was certainly a big mistake for me. If you and he can meet and bring a participating partnership to a marriage, that would be great, but don’t wait for that to magically happen. Over half a century, for me to expect he would be magically different, was rather stupid.  That’s what I’ve learned.

don't stay just because being divorced means having failed  - it does not mean that to all people everywhere. I never felt that I failed. We raised the kids and they turned out o.k. We lived a decent life, but grew apart for many reasons. He blames me and I blame him, so now we're even.LOL   Call it a day and stay on good terms. Do not worry about what people might think or say and do not put a label on being a divorcee. Half or more that half of all marriages seem to end up in divorce these days, we cannot let that put us down as failures. Think positive.

You are totally correct. It is society who put a label on all things that they not agree on!!!

sounds like some of the same stuff that went on in my marriage, which ended in divorce after 32 years. I let it go on for much too long...  and that was MY fault.

dear efix: the only person you can change is yourself -  Many people get in trouble financially when they lose their job because they bought "on credit".  Making the minimum payment on your credit card means you are going from paycheck to paycheck and that you could not afford to buy in the first place.  Credit card companies are thriving - making minimum payment means you will continue paying for years to come and that $100 or $1,000 item will end up having cost you $300 or $3,000.   

Yes, tennim, you are right. But the bigger question is this: is bad financial behavior grounds for divorce? Should a spouse's spending behavior be a deal-breaker for a marriage? Should financial irresponsibility be allowed to wreck a love relationship? Especially if the person realizes it was a mistake and corrects that behavior, shouldn't the other spouse respect that and shouldn't the couple's solid commitment and, hopefully, love for each other transcend financial irresponsibility? Or is money – like adultery – an acceptable dealbreaker for a marriage?

efix,

This is the third day since your origional posting. Would you believe, that I have constantly thought about your stated concerns and that of many of the other ladies on this page. We are all at an age, when we should be enjoying our lives, not, thinking about seperating, finding new places to live and basically, starting all over. None of us want to find ourselves in this kind of a position.

Therefore, after reading every word of your origional posting, I wanted to think about, wheather or not, there was a few words or sentences I could use... to help you and your husband, began the process, of thinking about, what's really important in this overall journey called life? You two need to really look at each other, not just look, but really see the other, to not just hear but to listen, to each other, as individuals and as a couple, with a new kind of appreciation and respect.  

I am on my way to the doctors and will have this conversation with you, when I return home. I just wanted you to know, I had not forgot about you. Jo

Hi efix,

As I took some time, to carefully think about your concerns, as you shared them with us, my question was, can I be of any help?: is there was anything I could say the may help a little? I know that all the answers you are seeking, are already within you. You just need to be honest with yourself and to trust yourself. You are the only one who can answer questions regarding your husband….your marriage and… what you really want in life. Therefore, I don’t think I have any advice for you, instead, I would like to have a conversation with you…. Just another point of view, from someone on the outside, looking into the window you opened for us all. Over the last few days, I see you have shared a little more about your marriage.

After I read your additional information, my question was, do I have the same conversation, that I had been gathering my thoughts around orgionally, or, do I change what I was going to say? My answer was yes: I should share my views with you. My conversation with you, will not be about you leaving your husband.. or.. how you should get your financial business in order. I don’t understand much about those issues myself, therefore, I will yield, to the knowledge of other ladies on this site, who are more experience in that area, than I am. Their advice about property, finances, insurance and those important issues, would serve you much better, than any advice from me in those areas.. 

After I read your additional information, my question was, do I have the same conversation, that I had been gathering my thoughts around orgionally, or, do I change what I was going to say? My answer was yes: I should share my views with you. My conversation with you, will not be about you leaving your husband.. or.. how you should get your financial business in order. I don’t understand much about those issues myself, therefore, I will yield, to the knowledge of other ladies on this site, who are more experience in that area, than I am. Their advice about property, finances, insurance and those important issues, would serve you much better, than any advice from me in those areas..

I just want to have a little great heart-to-heart, girlfriend /sisterly conversation with you.….to see if I can encourage you… to take a few steps backwards… away from looking at all of your concerns at once… as if they are in one big baskets, which may seem like a very large mountain, of un-solvable issues, between your husband and yourself. I would like to help you understand, how you can turn this large mountain of problems, into many separate and more manageable smaller ones… in order to accomplish your stated goals of more joy, happiness and validations in your life, without too much energy being expanded on your part. You have the ability to bring your own stress level much lower and it won’t cost you $150.00 an hour or more in Counseling Fees.

Efix, the reason I thought about my conversation with you for so long, is because…it was so different from Gene’s and Laganlady’s postings, on this same page. And yet it was similar: however, neither of these beautiful ladies, had any idea what the problems were, with their husbands. One had been suffering on and off…for a period of about two years, (out of 36 years of marriage) and the other one, not only was very unhappy, but, had been carrying, a very heavy load for the last 14 years (of a 40 year marriage). They had no idea, why their husbands were changing…into someone… they were not sure… they wanted to remain married too.

If you go back and read Laganlady’s recent posts: You will see a lady…not counting the last nails, in their once shared property, but someone counting the days, until they began to enjoy, that long overdue vacation, they are planning together. Laganlady seem to have a new outlook on life. She is happier now and enjoying more peace and companionship, with her husband. This do not mean, that there will not be some rough days ahead, but now, they both understand, how important honest communication is and how important it is, not to just hear with their ears, but to listen with their hearts.

Laganlady’s life seem to have completed a 360 degree turn for the betterment, in just a couple of months, this is wonderful news. You can do the same for yourself: but, your quest, for this kind of relationship with your husband and your own happiness, must start, by being totally honesty with yourself, about what you can and cannot live with or live without: There are questions you need to ask yourself and only you can answer them. What are you looking for in a partner or a lifetime companion/husband and what’s going to be your changing role, in the development of this new and more respected relationship/companionship, between your husband and yourself?

As Human Beings, I think all our truths should begin with the realization, that none of us are going to find that perfect individual, because, he/she do not exist anywhere, except in our minds. We need to see each other as fallible and be willing to offer, a little more room to make mistakes, to learn from and to grow because of, this is a lifetime journey. All of us need to stop trying to pinned others into corners. The pinned individual will get very defensive and ready to fight: No one will win this in this kind interactions.

Your shared concerns may seem like one big problem. I would like to help you separate them and put them in smaller baskets. This way, you can see the totality, of all your concerns at any point in time and choose which ones you are willing to work on for that day and leave the others in their own imaginary baskets. This way, you will not get that feeling of being overwhelmed and ready to pull out every strain of hair on your head, one by one. You can learn how to manage our own stress level, without paying $150.00-$300.00 per hour for counseling fees.

All of us at some point in time, have been in a position, where our problems seem like they are going to overtake us and many of us have felt like we are going to explode: that’s when we need to just take a few steps backwards. I’m sure you have heard the saying, “you can’t see the forest, for the trees” that’s because, the individual is standing in the middle of the woods and all they can see is trees: however, if they take a few steps backwards and out of the woods, the forest will slowly unfold right there before their eyes. We don’t always have to give up on our destination, just because there are a few potholes in the road. We may just need to find a different route to get to where we want to go. If you find that the road you have been traveling, do not seem to be getting you any closer to your destination of joy, happiness and that validation you spoke about, then you may need to take a few steps backwards, not to give up on your dreams and goals, but to have them unfold before you, in order that you may consider a different path/routes.

At the beginning of your post, you told us, what a hard working man, great father and son-in-law your husband is, that he helps with your elderly father, he’s very respectful to your family, he helps you with the laundry and with whatever other errands, you may need around the house. You told us that your husband makes a good living and not only provided the necessities for his family, over the last 25 years, but he helped out with their material wants as well. He have conversations with your young adult children, about the importance of saving for a rainy day or an un-expected event, retirement and investments. He pays all of the bills, because he is the only working and he have never, ever, chased after other women, in the 25 years of your marriage. He is fun to be around, he loves to go out and just have fun; that he is totally satisfied with light banter and commentaries about politics, the news and world affairs: that he has no interest in spiritual matters, he don’t believe in credit cards balances.

At the beginning of your post, when you were giving us a description of your husband. I am sure I am not the only lady who thought, is there a clone of him somewhere? where can I find one like that? My friend, if you bottled this man and put him in the marketplace, with that description, you would probably become a multi-billionaire in less than a week: after such a delightful description… of a good family man… what could possible be so broken and none repairable in your relationship?

dear efix:  I believe, correct me if I am wrong, that overspending is a symptom of something else that is not going right in the marriage.  If you two want to save your marriage, you most probably need outside help to learn to be totally honest about what each of you is feeling and to help you get back on track and commit to the marriage and to what each of you is willing to change - most couples who are in trouble don't feel appreciated, loved, respected and they retaliate with hurtful behaviours.  If you want to save your marriage, say so.

Josephine, Tennim – your thoughts are MOST helpful. Great advice from both of you!!! I initially posted my marriage problem as a simple juxtaposition between money and spirit, intentionally simplifying it into a question of whether a man's obsession with finances to the near exclusion of dweling on matters of the self and the spirit were grounds for divorce. I see, it's obvious that if my or his path toward happiness is being thwarted by this ongoing battle that it's time to go our separate ways. I didn't want to reveal the more complicated and serious issues until this simple problem were addressed, and I do appreciate your viewpoints on all this. So, here goes: he is hypercritical of me and the kids. For instance, the first thing he'll do when he comes home is scold me about some trivial matter of the kitchen or the garbage or the groceries or something. Then he'll make some negative remark about something he observed about our daughter. There is no affection toward me whatsoever; in his mind and behavior he is already divorced from me. He has stubbornly said he will not change this kind of stuff – "just deal with it." Which brings me to the point that no, he is NOT willing to change. He wants me to "accept" him (don't we all want this!!) as he is. I have presented him with the means of changing his critical nature -- a side of him which no one else sees but his own family -- that would yet preserve who HE is, but he flatly refuses. And then he accuses me of NAGGING him about it – because I do keep suggesting the means to change and he keeps not budging; he'd rather sit in front of the computer all night when he comes home and ignore me completely, tune me out and turn me off. I have also tried to get him to sit down and work out his own goals and purposes, as he literally has no goals for the future. As mentioned in my original post, he speaks of "retirement" but that is not a goal, it is an UNgoal, a NOT doing. Meanwhile, as I mentioned we have pursued divorce mediation and yet I still have misgivings and hope that he'll have an epiphany and want to reconcile. Am I whistling in the wind?

your situation reminds me so very much of my own years ago. His work place made him miserable, his parents were very demanding, and he came home a cold, critical man. I lived with it for too many years, until I learned to shut it off. We were separated in mind and body long before I had enough of his weird behaviour and his anger problems. Once the kids were off to college, I decided it was time to leave. His "plans" were, to have his mother move in with us, which was out of the question. She was worse than he was. For the retirement, he wanted to live in a Mobile Home and drive around in it for a few years. No, thanks. Not my cup of tea, LOL. As it turned out, his mother just turned 91 and was put into a Nursing Home. Had I remained in that non-marriage, I'd be looking after her for the last 10 years.  I KNOW that I made the right choice, was on the fence much too long about it, but now have no regrets. Forget reconciling - men do not change at that age. Women who want a man, do all the adjusting. If we dare to open our mouths and have an opinion, we are "nagging".  Can't win that one, LOL.

Sabinia, you must be living in my house with my husband because much of what you say is what I'm going through -- opinions regarded as "nagging", the critical nature, even the part about his wanting to drive around in a mobile home because he actually suggested this! Thanks for sharing. My hope is that you and all the other women who are in our same boat will seek and find happiness and joy as independent spirits where our worthy goals can be realized.

I love, LOVE this one. Good for YOU!

Hi efix.

I feel so sorry for you and your family after reading your last post.  Your husband sounds like a very closed off individual.  He is not happy in his life within the family, maybe thinking he missed something. If he is lashing out at the children, it is not just you he resents.  Instead of trying to recapture what he loved about you in the beginning, he is looking outside the marriage.  Maybe he is not having a physical affair, but definitely a emotional one.   If he is transferring any happy feeling outside, ie, enjoying reationships with his "sisters", it is only because he does not have the courage to go further because his rigid thinking won't allow him,(as far as you know).  How does your family feel about this?  It can't be a very happy place for them.  If they understand, and want you be happy, that would be a great comfort to you.  He is punishing you by withholding love and emotional support for whatever transgression you have committed in his eyes, and you choice now is to keep on feeding his power or taking your own. Maybe when he is confronted with a divorce it may shake his conviction, but if itdoesn't, that is your answer.  Life is too short to waste, at our age time seems to go faster, and if you want to be happy and can't get him to participate, for me, it would be time to leave.  Don't worry about what others think, this is your life, not theirs.  My situation was different from yours, in the fact that my husband wanted to stay in the relationship, took ownership of his behaviour, and said he loved me and apologized.  If he had not at least tried to change, I would have left.  I never wanted to be on my death bed regretting the chance to love again and be happy.  I wish I had all the magic words to tell you everything would work out, but the truth is it will get worse before it gets better, BUT IT WILL GET BETTER.  I resented feeling like a widow when I had a husband.  If you are a widow, you can get on with your life, but when your husband shuts you out, it is like a knife twisting in your heart.  You cannot heal, as every insult, every shut door is another twist, and the hurt does not end.  I had made the decision to "stop the hurt and heal".  He knew it, was sorry he had been the cause of it, and decided to try and change.  That was good enough for me to try again.  Up until now, it has been the right decision, and hopefully, it will continue, but if it were to happen again, I would not waste the time wondering what I should do, I would be ready to begin "Phase Two" of my life.  I feel love and compassion for you, and hope you find the encouragement to  proceed down whichever path is right for you.  Just remember, you are a long time dead, and all the folks you are worried about will be 6 feet under in 15-20 years, and none of this will matter.  Don't waste precious time, just be happy.

Laganlady, you are wise and compassionate, and so fortunate that your hubby could look within and come to grips with his failings. We all have failings, but I think as I read more of these postings that females can more readily admit them because we are not obsessed with "winning" and our egos and pride are not what drive us toward success. Also, I think men are more materially-inclined (business, money, etc.), in general, whereas women are more emotionally attuned. (In GENERAL, I mean: not a hard and fast rule.)

I agree with you.  I believe that the majority of women define themselves through their home and family, even when they have a career, they feel guilty about it, and still try to be everything to everyone,  whereas men define themselves by their careers and how successful they are outside of the home.  We are all familiar with " Why are you complaining if I am absorbed with work, I am doing it for the family".  It is a lucky woman who has a husband who is more invested in his family's happiness, than how he is perceived by his business associates, and can create a healthy balance with both.

Dear efix,

This have been a very hard post for me to respond to because, each time I am about to respond, I re-read your postings and each time, I gain new information, that I didn’t see, doing my first or second reading. Because this is not a book I am reading, but, actual facts about real people lives: I am not going to bash your husband…. But simply look at his views as you have shared them with us here: I know you want to remain in this marriage to this man, therefore, I will not say anything too negative about him. I will not take sides in my comments, but will honestly try to see the issues of conflicts between you, from both of your points of view.

You have given us a lot of information about your husband as a person and then conflicting information, about his role in the home, your relationship with each other and whether or not you wish to remain in this marriage. Your first description of your husband, I think would be any woman’s dream. You said he was a hard worker and a good provider for his family, that he earns a reasonable good living, takes responsibility for the material goods of his family, always responsive to help with request for errands, he helps with household and landscape projects, he’s always courteous and respectful to all members of your family. He’s always ready to pitch in and help with your elderly father; he’s usually jovial in manner; he likes to go out and have some fun; he likes the local, state and world news, basically, he likes politics and most definitely, he does not cheat or go after other women.

He also nags you about spending money on the credit card, accusing you of spending your children‘s college funds with credit cards; he don’t like credit card balances. He starts conflicts about garbage in the kitchen or groceries not put away or something like that, You say he has no interest in spiritual matters, which you do; that you are a 'seeker', an inner explorer, a person who wants to constantly improve your understanding of yourself and others – and that he don’t care about improving himself as a person, as a being. All he thinks about is "retirement" in some general sense; he makes negative remarks about something he observed about your daughter. He shows no affection toward you whatsoever; in his mind and behavior he is already divorced from you. He is NOT willing to change. He wants you to "accept" him (don't we all want this!!) as he is. He believes that you are trying to change him and he absolutely BLAMES you for ruining the marriage, because of the way you spend money!!!

The credit card issue and trying to change his personality, seem to be to larger issues of conflicts, between the two of you from which, other smaller conflicts arise. When you say your husband is obsessed with money, you have not shared this with us. You say he have been working hard for 25 years and making a decent living…. Maybe he thought, that he was making enough to put some away for the children’s college and maybe even a little extra, towards retirement. Then, month after month, he sees credit card bills and do not see anything that was bought with the credit cards. This may cause some tension to build up in him, especially, when he don’t like the idea of credit card balances. It seem to me that, you could kill two birds with one stone: by eliminating the credit card, you eliminate one of your conflicts, thus one less argument, using cash, means more money to spend or save, because of all the interests saved by not using the credit card. This is a win, win situation for both of you.

Another large conflict between the two of you, as you have shared with us,, is he believes that you are trying to change him and have told you, he’s not going to change.

You say that you have presented him with the means of changing his critical personality, but he flatly refuses. And then he accuses you of NAGGING him about it – because “I do keep suggesting the means to change” and he keeps not budging; Can you understand, where this may be a no win situation for yourself? You say, “I have also tried to get him to sit down and work out his own goals and purposes, as he literally has no goals for the future”

I think, you and your husband have different personal interests and that’s ok because, you are two different individuals. The deal is, to respect each other’s personal choices. You are developing yourself spiritually. You say, that you are you are a 'seeker', an inner explorer, a person who wants to constantly improve your understanding of yourself and others. This is a good thing for you, but, it is not your husband’s thing: that’s where the conflict comes from. Religion and spirituality is not something, we can force others to participate in, especially if they are adults. Regarding you trying to get him to sit down and talk about his goals or his future, which you say, he have no plan: forgive me for saying this, but, this man is refusing to be treated as a child, thus more conflict.

You know he understands about planning for the future, because, you have heard him having conversations with your young adult children, about savings, investments, stocks and retirement. You have given us a lot of information here and I cant’s address each of your concerns in this response. But, I think, if you want to stay married to this man, you can't just look at what he's doing wrong, that's causing you to be so unhappy: You must also look at what role you are playing in this conflict and at the same time, look at some of the good qualities you admire in him. No one is 100% bad or 100% good all the time. Start to separate your concerns and put them into their own imaginary baskets. You will find yourself less stressful and be more capable of dealing with your concerns.

I am sure after 25 years, you can find some good qualities about your husband, to put in your first basket...I think the first thing to do…is to honestly look at…. take apart and maybe throw away some of the issues you raised. You can do this, when you step backwards a little and lay out all of your concerns, in individual baskets and you may find, that some are not worth your time or holding on to them. I understand that in the middle of a divorce, it may be very hard to think about good things regarding the other person, however, you have told us that, you don't really want this divorce. This means that there are some positive things about your husband, that you (admire...like...love) and when you put them on a scale, the positives out weights the negatives: And, the negatives can be corrected.... if the two of you identify them together… respecting each others' opinion…with the goal being… seeking a livable solution…keeping in mind… that no one is perfect. This can happen, like it did with Laganlady and her husband. The real issue is, you both have to want the same thing, to save the marriage, to be married to each other.

I think most of the ladies here, seem to be automatically in your corner, they have experienced some of the same things you are experiencing. Some of them were able to work things out to their satisfaction and some were not: but, they all gave you some information to think about and see if any of it made sense to you. My responses are trying to offer a few sentences and paragraphs, that will help you focus on your own words, actions, interactions and participations, in this long on going conflict with your husband: To help you look at whether or not, there’s anything you would change about your own behavior and actions? One of the hardest things in the this world to do…is to stand before a mirror…look ourselves in the eyes… and.. be completely honest…honestly might not always feel good….but… it must be the starting point….the foundation… from which everything else flows. You have indicated, that you want to remain married to your husband….you want joy…happiness….love…and….validation in your life. The question is, what words, sentences, behaviors or actions, are you willing to adjust, on your own behalf… to accomplish your stated goals?: keeping in mind, none of us is perfect.

I will stop writing here and give you and the readers a break, so I will not take up all the space from others who may wish to comment. If you do decide to get a divorce, don’t worry about what other people think. Your marriage is none of their business. I wish the best for you efix.

Jo

Wow Josephine!  You are so wise, it is true most of us have empathy for efix, and relate to ourselves, but you have the ability to put things in perspective.  I did tell you you should have a career in women's councilling, and they more I read from you , they more I am convinced you should.

Laganlady,

Again, thanks for your kind words. I hope one sentence I've stated, will help efix slow down and take the time to think about, not only what her husband can do... to help her be more joyful and happier in their home.... but, what she is willing to do.... to make sure.... he is joyful and happy as well?   When we are in the middle of a heated conflict, we may not even think about the other person, having the same emotional feelings. If we would just give ourselves some time to cool off, we may make a different decision in 24 to 48 hours: even giving ourselves a week or more, when we are talking about a lifetime of joy and happiness:  many times we back ourselves into a corner.  I think efix and her husband can save their marriage. They must be willing to sit at the table... across from each other and be each other's mirror. They must began that heart to heart conversation.... like you and your husband did.... when he was in the hospital.

I think efix and her husband have the skills and knowledge necessary to save their marriage, because, there don't seem to be any outside conflict. There's no other woman or man involved and they don't seem to have any in-laws problems. If they can respect each other's personhood and individuality... they can come to terms... with a livable solution... for the concerns, efix shared with us here. My hope for them is; that they have began the process of repairing their marriage and that the next 25 years, will be much more understanding, caring, compassionated, loving and stronger than they could have imagined.

Langanlady, again, thanks for communicating with me and I enjoy reading your posts as well. This is a great site for women over 50. I love the fact that we  share our hearts as well as our experiences.

Jo

Josephine, very thoughtful comments. In actual fact, I have agreed to stop abusing credit cards. But he won't give anything back on his end. Allow me to clarify that, yes, he respects member of my wider family, but his wife and children are fair game for critical remarks. And I so wish that your wishes for me might come true, but indeed, one key point is missing. You said: "And, the negatives can be corrected.... if the two of you identify them together… respecting each others' opinion…with the goal being… seeking a livable solution…keeping in mind… that no one is perfect." Well, he doesn't respect my opinion at all. He denigrated me last night, in fact, of looking at life "through my spiritual filter". Other people might see that as a wonderful, positive quality. But he does not.

efix,

I too see your spiritual journey as a good thing: but based on what you have shared with us, you want him to be more spiritual as well and said that you have presented him with the means of changing his critical nature.... but, he flatly refuses.

If your husband tried to change your personality and insisted that you not believe in or engage in spirituality, you would flatly refuse his request as well. I am not taking your husband's side over yours.  I am trying to help you see.... where this is an issue of conflict.. in your marriage. You can't change him and he can't change you.

There are millions of people, who have no interest in religion or spirituality. They are still good people and have good qualities. The same God that made you and I, made everyone else. He/She gave us all indepedent minds, the choice to freely express ourselves. This includes the  choice to believe or not to believe. If your husband don't believe in spirituality now, chances are, he didn't believe 10-15 or 20 years ago and you still loved him and stayed married to him. What happened in 2010, that makes him so different than those other years? I am not arguing with you.  I am trying to help you identify, what is the real conflict in your marriage? When did it start and what was the boiling point?

One day your husband may change his mind about all of this: in the mean time, this is one of your concerns, that you can put into one of those baskets, I suggested earlier. There are somethings you can do nothing about, so don't carry them around on your shoulders. Less stress equals more joy and happiness. 

  Even though people who are married are seen as one, they are still individuals and certain issues are personal. One's spirituality or religious beliefs is very personal. I understand your desire to improve yourself spiritually. I am very spiritual myself and many people call me a very religious person. However, I understand that everyone will not think as I do, but, I still try to treat everyone with dignity and respect, whether they are a believe or not.

Regarding your husband being very critical and denigrated you. This is not something you have to put up with. He must treat you with dignity and respect. You must demand this of him and be willing to treat him with the same dignity and respect.  I still believe that the negative concerns you shared with us, can be turned into positives. 

If the two of you can't sit down and have honest and respectable conversations, what its it that you want to save about this marriage, as you have said, that you don't want to get a divorce? Also, why is it that your children seem to always be a part of the conflicts? They should not be a part of your marriage problems. We are not talking about small children, if both you and your husband are in your 50s or 60s. 

It's great news about you giving up the credit cards. If you could just lighten up a little bit regarding your husband's self-development/spirituality, along with the fact that you have stop abusing the credit card, you should begin to see some light at the end on the tunnel. These are two very large and important steps on your part. I am proud of you: to be willing to look at yourself and to change certain behaviors, for the betterment of your marriage.  The question now is, what changes are your husband willing to make? You were both participants in the destruction of this marriage, now, both of you must work together, in order to rebuild it. If he is not willing to respect you and work with you: I think you have the answers to all of your concerns and whether or not, this marriage can be saved.

If you have to get a divorce from your husband, I think you should be able walk away, with your head held high... knowing you have given it your best and that's all anyone can ask of you. I wish peace, joy, love and contentment for you my friend.

efix,

here is a link to another discussion on this site, about marriage and almost divorce. I think you will enjoy reading the origional posting, plus additional comments.

http://www.vibrantnation.com/conversations/83208-making-the-new-not-the-old-marriage-work-/

Josephine, I wish I coud be as positive as you. I appreciate your pointing the way to looking at both sides of the marriage story, too. Neither party is "more at fault" than the other, but certainly if one is less tolerant than the other, it can cause a strain. It's obvious he doesn't respect my choices in spiritual matters. He feels it's a deal-breaker, because even though I've promised to stop abusing credit cards, he says he doesn't like me anymore. When I was out of town a few months ago, he told me when I returned that he "preferred it to my being here." And because I am willing to change but he isn't, well, that's a deal-breaker for me. And by the way, the link below that you sent could have been written by me by about 90 percent. PERFECT! Thanks so much.

efix,   My heart goes out to you. I am so sorry that you are having such a rough time in your marriage. I really feel your agony. My responses to you, may have seemed like I was taking your husband's side, nothing could be farther from the truth. Many times in a conversation with someone, we say what we think the other person want to hear. After reading your post, I felt like your husband would use the credit card issue and your spiritual development, against you: that is why I suggested you try to look at these two issues, a little more careful and you have.  I see the giant steps you are taking and not even baby steps from your husband.

One person alone, cannot fix a broken marriage. In your note to me above, it seem like, your husband don't want to participate in mending the holes in this marriage. If he is not in love with you any longer and don't even like you, then, you must keep a level head and speak with a good divorce attorney: 25 years is a long time and you don't want to walk away from this marriage with empty hands, as if you are 18 and just leaving your parents home, for the first time.

If I was you, I would not leave the home; let him leave, if he is so un-happy. I know you said that you don't want a divorce; however, I am sure you don't want to live with someone, who can't respect you, have honest conversations about the marriage and who tells you, he don't even like you. If this is the case, stop taking care of him, don't wash any more of his clothes or cook for him.  Let him do these things for himself. You must start thinking about yourself and planning for your future without him being in the picture, he may come around to thinking the marriage is worth saving, if not: just make sure, that your long-term planning is done with the help of a good divorce attorney. Stay calm, so you can think rationally.

My prayers are with you my friend. May God Bless you and help you to have peace of mind.

God bless you Josephine, you always try to encourage us to see the best in people, but when confronted with the obvious, your advice is strong.  Efix, I think you are wasting your time.  Get organized, see an attorney, remove all your important personal  papers and things you value.  I agree with Josephine, I would not leave the house, just make sure you get your half of the finances and all property.  Don't assume he will be fair, he won't.  I know so many woman who made that mistake, thinking he will be fair with me, after all, we have spent our lives together, but in most cases, they ended up having to fight tooth and nail to get anything, and some got nothing.  All spirited away and hidden.  Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.  The only thing you have to lose is everything you have worked for all these years.  If this man is so miserable to you now, he will be worse if you decide to divorce him.  I am sure there must be some men out there who play fair when seperating, but I have heard more of the other kind, why take a chance when you have so much to lose.  Just be careful and get good legal advice, but it is always stronger to act when in a position of strength, possession is 9/10th of the law.  It is better to have him fight you to get items back, than you having to fight him. I hope it does not come to that for you, but just be prepared.  Just know that you have a lot of support here, and there is nothing you can't get help with.  The women on this site, have been through most of what you are going through, some ended well, and some not.  In any case, they will be able to give you a map of where you are heading, and maybe help you avoid some of the pitfalls they encountered.   God bless.

God bless you Josephine, you always try to encourage us to see the best in people, but when confronted with the obvious, your advice is strong.  Efix, I think you are wasting your time.  Get organized, see an attorney, remove all your important personal  papers and things you value.  I agree with Josephine, I would not leave the house, just make sure you get your half of the finances and all property.  Don't assume he will be fair, he won't.  I know so many woman who made that mistake, thinking he will be fair with me, after all, we have spent our lives together, but in most cases, they ended up having to fight tooth and nail to get anything, and some got nothing.  All spirited away and hidden.  Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.  The only thing you have to lose is everything you have worked for all these years.  If this man is so miserable to you now, he will be worse if you decide to divorce him.  I am sure there must be some men out there who play fair when seperating, but I have heard more of the other kind, why take a chance when you have so much to lose.  Just be careful and get good legal advice, but it is always stronger to act when in a position of strength, possession is 9/10th of the law.  It is better to have him fight you to get items back, than you having to fight him. I hope it does not come to that for you, but just be prepared.  Just know that you have a lot of support here, and there is nothing you can't get help with.  The women on this site, have been through most of what you are going through, some ended well, and some not.  In any case, they will be able to give you a map of where you are heading, and maybe help you avoid some of the pitfalls they encountered.   God bless.

Laganlady,

How are you doing?  Lately... I have been thinking a lot about You, Efix and Gene: but, I have been a little under the weather and have not felt up to writing very much.  In order for me to write, in a way that makes sense, I need to be free from some of the server pain.... I have been dealing with.... over the last 4-5 weeks.  I am feeling much better. After a few trips to the emergency room. I finally passed some kidney stones and without surgery. I also suffered from the stretching of my throat and chest. Everything seemed to happen around the same time... one right after the other.

As I laid on my bed or couch, popping pills, I continued to think about You, Gene and Efix and prayed... that things were going well... for you three women.  I hope you and your husband are still planning your vacation, or maybe you have taken the trip already: if this is the case, then, I hope you had the time of your lives and your relationship is better that you could have ever dreamed it would be... especially, when you look back to last year this time.

Before I got sick, I took a long 18 hour day trip and had a great time. I hope sometime next week, I can come back on here and write about, "Stepping out of our comfort zones"  I had a great and painful time. I want to share it with you beautiful ladies. I plan to take about three to four more small trips, before our weather changes and I'm in for the winter. I really do hope your lives have continued to improve and you look forward to the coming of each new day. May God continue to bless you and fill your days with kindness... compassion... love... and.. peace. Always,

Jo

I sent a post to Gene on 3-2-10 that I was going through a divorce.  We were officially divorced on 4-27-10 and it is the best thing I could have done for myself.  I bought a new house and I now have the freedom I need.  I am also planning a 3 or 4 day vacation by myself next month because it is time for me to get out and experience what the world has to offer and step out of my comfort zone.  Divorce is never easy and my ex and I are trying to maintain a friendship although that is harder for him than it is for me because he still has feelings for me.  Long story short, divorce was the best thing I could have done for myself because I no longer feel like I am dying inside.  I am now a truly Vibrant Woman!!

dewdropin,

Thanks for your response. I am so happy for you... that things have worked out the way you wanted. I love the fact, that you are moving on with your life... buying a new house and planning to get some rest and have some fun.  I like the idea of you planning that vacation by yourself.... I wish I lived near you and maybe, we could do something together.

I decided to do a few things this summer as well... that is, go out all by myself. I decided to start small and do the one day, two-three days at first and see the things I am interested in, instead of waiting for friends.. who always have excuses at the last minust, why they are backing out. I find it very surprising and exciting, what we can accomplish in a short period of time. All it takes, is for us to make the decision and to follow through. My plan is to discover more of my own country. There is so much I want to see and do, before I am no longer physically able to do it.

So dewdropin, I am happy for you, that you are beginning to enjoy life again. I am happy that you are discovering, you can be happy and content, all by yourself. I went on a chartered tour bus and the people on the bus, was so nice to me... two couples adopted me, by asking me to join them, when we got to our destination and we were together all day. It was great. I will write about it here on VN next week. I couldn't believe that... all this time, while I was waiting for others to make up their minds, about going with me... I could have been seening the world and enjoying every minute of it.

I have a few more places I plan to visit this year, however, in 2011, I plan to have a greater more fun filled summer.

Josephine,

Thank you for your response and encouragement.  This is why this website is so important in that we encourage each other along the way.

I am starting small and just staying within my state of Minnesota for my first travel ventures but as time goes on, I may want to visit other states or countries.

I find that there is a huge difference between being alone and being lonely.  I felt lonely in my marriage but I definitely enjoy being alone.  I got the book that I saw on VN several months ago by Florence Falk called "On My Own:  The Art of Being A Woman Alone" and find it helpful.

Good luck in your journeys and enjoy them!

Hi Josephine, I am happy to hear from you.  There has been no new posts on the site for a while, and I figured this conversation was finished.  Thankfully, my life has improved, my husbands' operation was sucessful, and he can walk again without pain.  We are leaving for Jamacia on the 30th of this month, and look forward to a great time.  We are also going to Las Vegas in September, as my son has a business there, and he is going to Venice, Italy for a convention, so we are going to oversee his business and look after his pets, still Las Vegas is a nice place to be, even if we are working.  We are also talking to friends of ours about a cruise in Feb/11, so you can see we are in a much better place, even with our everyday interaction.  We still have little skirmishes from time to time, but normal ones, no cruelty.  We have also been spending some time on our boat, which makes him happy, and now we are re-discovering each other and having fun together.

I am sorry to hear you have been having such a hard time lately, I hope you are feeling well soon. I wish I knew where you lived, maybe we could visit sometime.  I live north of Toronto, Canada, and I don't know how far it is from you.

I am looking forward to hearing about your trip, hopefully,  you will be well enough soon to do that.   Other than that I have been busy with my family, little 10mth granddaughter, and older granddaughters graduating from high school, and one in University, so life is very full right now. 

Please keep in touch, I was so happy to hear from you.

Laganlady,

Thank you so much for responding. There might not have been any posting here for a while... but.. that doesn't mean, we forgot you or that we are not concerned about how you are doing. There are some ladies here at VN, that have touched my heart and I feel especially close to, like a good friend and you are one of those ladies.

I am so happy about how things worked out with you and your husband... not only with your marriage... but.. with his health as well. I love what you said about, the two of you still having little skirmishes, but they are normal ones. This is a part of life. You are two completely different individuals trying to make a life together... every now and then, personalities will clash, a little, however, the two of you have arrived at a point in your lives, where you can discuss your differences without, being cruel and without being very disrespectful. This is great news. Your life now shows... what a little hard work, patience... respect... and... love can accomplish... when both of you want the same thing. I am so proud of you... for not just walking away... from 40 years of marriage... even though it was very hard on you and caused you to shed a lot of tears and you felt a lot of pain in your heart. However, your love for your husband was strong enough, to give it one more try.  Your husband made the same decision and here we are, with the two of you, walking down that long journey together, called life. What a beautiful ending, where there was so much pain. Your joy brings tears to my heart. They are happy tears, for you my friend.

Your trips sound great, even the one where you will be taking care of your son's business. I am just so happy for you. Please don't leave us here on VN. My heart would miss you so much. 

Toronto is one of the places I have been researching to visit.  I have wanted to visit there for about four years now. I had just told my son last week, that I wanted him to join me there for a week-end. I wanted to come there this fall... to see the changing of the leaves and do some sight seeing... but, it may have to wait until next year, because, one of my other VN friends, want me to come out to Illionois and visit her and her children, probably in late September or October. I live upstate New York about 6 hours drive from Toronto. I will keep in touch and let you know in advance, when we or just me, is coming there. Again, thanks for responding. May God continue to Bless you and your family. Much love.

Jo

Hi Josephine, I am glad to know we can meet sometime, it is not too far for either of us to go, who knows we may be able to arrange a group meeting for whoever wants to go.

Nothing is impossible, I too feel a kinship with the ladies here, and it would be a privilige to meet with you.

Keep well friend, I will stay in touch.

Laganlady

for sure make Toronto one of your places to visit. I used to live there in the 60s and 70s, and I loved it. Both my adult children live there now, and like it very much. I visit at least once a year, although Toronto has changed a lot over the years. It is still a nice big city, has a lot to offer and has the best Zoo in Canada.  Plenty of night-life, shopping, theatres, comedy clubs and a little further north, pictureresque landscapes, lakes and forests.

Thanks Sabina. I can't wait to go there and plan to do a train tour, maybe later in 2011, but first, I just want to visit the big city Toronto. About three years ago, I was trying to charter a two bus tour, one for the young people and one for the parents and older friends.  My son plays in a band and have friends from across the globe.  He have some friends, who live in Toronto and their band came here to play in a concert.  They stayed with us. They were supposed to just stay over night... but... they were so happy, they stayed another night and could not get over the fact, that we treated them so well, no hotels and home cooking.  I did all the cooking and my apartment was full, because, members of local bands and their girlfriends, came over as well. 

I was upset, when our trip to Toronto, with two groups of about 110 did not happen. I had did so much research and organizing for this trip... and I had spoken with so many individuals in Toronto, including the Mayor's Office.They were going to greet our busses, as we pulled into the hotel. With the Toronto Blue Jays Baseball Team, we were to get a private tour of the skydome and great seats, at discount prices and a big welcome poster at the baseball game, if we brought 50 or more individuals to the game.

Our young people, were going to participate in a fund raising concert, organized by the young people, who had come here and we the older adults, were going to do some sight seeing of that beautiful city and get to meet and visit, with their parents. We had a whole week-end planned and I was so disappointed, when it fell through; however, my heart have been set on visiting Toronto, every since. Now it is a little more difficult, to visit, with everyone needing a passport or passport card.  My son and I have both. So, we are ready to travel.